00:01:41
And so, through that, I became a lot more integrated into sort of like the ed tech field. I spent a couple of years at Apple, and then really decided to go back to school to do my doctorate and research; you know, what are the next kind of technological advancements we're going to see? And how can we best prepare people? And so this was about 2017. And obviously, everybody knew AI was going to be the next thing that would come. I don't think anybody knew this is what it would look like. And this is how big of an impact it would have. But I went back to go research why design thinking is what can really help us be irreplaceable in a world with AI and why design thinking is really our human advantage.
00:02:23
And so we released the research in 2020. And then in 2020, September 2022, the documentary came out. And then November 2020, Catch UPT came out. And so it's just been like this amazing sort of like journey of being a student myself, being a new graduate, kind of really looking at the education system from both lenses, and now kind of being here on the other side. Nice. Thank you so much. It's also like a really interesting how you said that, how can we the best prepare for the AI? Because lots of people are very interested in AI. Thank you so much.
00:03:07
It's also like a really interesting how you said that, how can we the best prepare for the AI? Because lots of people are very interested in AI. Because lots of people are very interested in AI. It's also like a really interesting how you said that, how can we the best prepare for the AI? Because lots of people are very interested in AI. Thank you so much. It's also like a really interesting how you said that, how can we the best prepare for the AI? Thank you so much. It's also like a really interesting how you said that, how can we the best prepare for the AI? Thank you so much. It's also like a really interesting how you said that, how can we the best prepare for the AI?
00:03:27
And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such?
00:03:44
And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? And can you tell our audience more what is actually design thinking for some people that might not really know design thinking as such? when it comes to being curious, when it comes to being empathetic, when it comes to just believing what you can do, your mindset plays a significant role, if not like the most important role. So that's number one. Design thinking is a method for how to approach something, but it's also a mindset that allows you to keep going down whatever you're approaching with confidence. The second thing that I think makes design thinking really unique is that method begins with empathy.
00:04:23
So whereas a lot of sort of problem-solving solutions and whatnot either start with, you know, okay, what are we going to do about this? Or people usually jump right to the solution. Design thinking says, slow down. Let's go all the way back to the beginning as best we can and really start having conversations and observations for the people we are designing for. And that's really the big shift that that stage helps you make. You go from designing for somebody to designing with somebody. And so there's like different stages of this, but really sort of like IDEO, I think. I like their kind of way they explain it. Like that empathy phase is all about inspiration. It helps you see something from a different perspective.
00:05:04
Maybe you thought the solution should have been something, but you have a conversation with somebody and you're like, oh my God, like we totally were thinking the wrong thing. Actually, this is where everybody's stuck. This is why it's not working. Or this is what is holding people back. And so, that insight and knowledge that you get doesn't even always come from the same thing. I'm going to just gather one conversation, right? It's not like I'm going to talk to you for 15 minutes and now I know the answers to how to do this. Sometimes it's a series of conversations. Sometimes one person says something and then you observe something else and then you talk to somebody else and then it just clicks.
00:05:36
And that to me is really why I believe design thinking makes you irreplaceable because that kind of information gathering is something an AI tool can't do yet, we always say. And really, and one of the biggest reasons they can't do it is because it's not as simple as one plus one is two, right? It can't just go and be like, 'Prompt a machine' and be like, 'Okay, I need you to do interview this person and dah, dah, dah.' It can help me generate questions. It can help me analyze the data from the interviews. It can do many, many things. But a lot of times that insight comes from, I just had all these conversations or I was doing this, but now maybe one day I'm walking, I'm traveling somewhere and it just clicks.
00:06:13
And that is a very, very, very unique human quality. And if you sort of like nurture that skillset and you nurture your ability to lead with empathy in the design thinking phase, the rest of the method is sort of now I have that data. Now let me go and ideate. Let me like look at different ways we might be able to use this information to create a plan. And then last but not least is implementation. But design thinking is not linear. It's not like one, two, three, it's like iterative. So we're always kind of going around and around. And then even when we get that solution, we take it back to the people. Is this working? We test how they're interacting with it. If it's a product, how do they interact with the product?
00:06:48
If it's an experience, how successful was the experience? And how do people feel in that experience? So it's really just a way of living. And I always say like when you go from like not having that mindset to having that mindset is so subconscious, it's just all of a sudden one day you wake up, you're more confident, you're more creative, and you're more willing to just engage with people in what you're designing. And in an AI world where AI can do maybe like 90% of things, that 10% is so uniquely human that I think it's so important to nurture that within not just people, but within our systems and how we work. I really align with what you said, that the click we have as humans, that that makes the authenticity on our side in comparison to AI.
00:07:36
And sometimes I'm even like when I have this click, I'm like, how couldn't I think about it before? You know, like I have all of these like technologies. I'm like living in modern society. I'm educated. And how couldn't I like think about it before? I'm like, how couldn't I think about this like before? How comes that just right now, I reached this point that I really want to change my life, for example, with this kind of exact pattern. So for example, with like digital nomading, right? Like I was not actually thinking about like being on different places all around Europe, like three months ago. And then it just clicked. And I was like, 'Why didn't I didn't do it like earlier? You know, like it just didn't come into my mind.' And right now, like it's just the reality.
00:08:21
And it's also interesting that when we have this click, it's, I feel that it's like some kind of like evolution or like some spot that we just as a human reach. And then all of the technologies are aligning to us because they see, based on an algorithm, that we started to be interested in slightly different things than before. Because when you're changing a bit, like your life, then like the algorithm, for example, like before I would be looking for, I don't know, like Chanel red bag, right, like a backpack and stuff like this. But right now, my preferences are different. And the algorithm and all of the technology is the navigating towards me; it's not that the technology is navigating me as a human, I am navigating the technology with the design thinking.
00:09:12
And this is what makes it like super interesting and irreplaceable, because we as humans are giving the trigger to the technology. Right now, I want to do this as a human. So my next question would be like, how does it look in practice, like to combine the design thinking with AI or like, when you are, for example, like teaching it to people or like when you have the clients or how does it look? What is the first thing that you advise to people when they want to embark on the design thinking? Yeah, I feel like when people want to do that, you know, one of my favorite quotes is from Don and he says, a brilliant solution to the wrong problem is worse than no solution at all. So solve the right problem.
00:09:59
So we really do spend a lot of time kind of telling people and I think, you know, sometimes in the beginning, the natural instinct is to be like, let's talk about AI. And let's have a conversation about AI. And how are we going to use AI. And one of the first things we do is we really try to get people to not think about AI for a moment, but to really think about the other challenges in the organization or the opportunities. Like what are things where like, wow, we really able to do all of this, but this is a barrier for us. And we just did, we just started one recently with a, with a high school. And in the beginning, it was all about like, okay, how can we use AI for this?
00:10:32
How can we use AI for that? And then as we started going through our conversation, one of the things that really surfaced was that like, people don't even want to really engage with technology because cell phones have become such a point of friction between teachers and students. And so what we actually ended up settling on for the design sprint that we were doing, was looking at like, okay, how might we use a cell phone technology to engage students in building a sort of like future-ready skills. And through that, now we're having a completely different conversation. Now we're talking about instruction. Now when they go in and like, right now they're in the midst of their empathy interviews, but one of the things they're going to be looking for is like, okay, what's happening in the classrooms? When are students picking up their devices? Why are they picking up their devices? When do students not pick up
00:11:31
their devices? Why are they picking up their devices? Why are they picking up their devices? And so we're looking at like, how do we use AI in high school for X, Y, Z? We're looking at how do we use technology in a way that meaningfully engages kids in designing whatever pathway does they want? So there's a lot of different things that we're looking at. And so I think that's looking at like portfolios as one option. And like another option they're looking at is like, how do we move more towards a project-based environment where they collaborate with the small businesses in their community so that the students can actually showcase projects and things like that in their portfolio? So it'll be interesting to see like what happens along the way, but that's sort of like a, that's sort of like an education example.
00:12:13
Then in the workplace, one of the ones we've done a lot recently is around culture. We see a lot of people, especially after the pandemic, we see a lot of people who are like, 'oh, I don't know', I don't with the friction they had between remote work, hybrid work, you know, coming back into the office and things like that goes back really to like, okay, what are your workflows like? Like, okay, if you have some people who are wanting to work in this way, but other people who are feeling this way, let's scale back. Let's look at like, what are the goals of your organization? What are some of the things that you are wanting to move forward in? Why do you feel like this isn't working?
00:12:46
Is there a way maybe to be able to design workflows that allow for people to have flexibility? At work because of AI, and this is one of the great things we saw just on that note was people who really invested in culture building and really looking at like the strengths of people on their team, how to keep people motivated and energized at work so that they weren't experiencing high levels of burnout really allowed them to be better positioned for artificial intelligence. Because one of the biggest things about design thinking is like, that goes back to that empathy piece, right? Building that culture of innovation, begins with empathy. Empathy is about like, okay, what motivates you? What drives you? But what do you hate? And what do you not like doing?
00:13:28
If I like doing something and you hate doing something, why would we do the opposite? Why wouldn't we each lead with our strengths? And that creates just a really healthy workplace culture. Again, can you do that 100% of the time? Maybe not. But if I could do it 80% of the time, I'm going to be much happier than if I was only doing it 10% of the time. Wow. And all of this you are doing in your own company, which is designing schools, right? Exactly. Yeah. So after we did the research and the documentary came out and whatnot, yeah, I launched my own company, Designing Schools. And we work with education and enterprise organizations. And we love both because Enterprise gets insight into what's happening in education and the role they can play there to support.
00:14:13
Education gets really great insight into Enterprise. And we love both because Enterprise gets insight into what's happening in education and the skills that workplaces are looking for. So sometimes we can bring these groups together to collaborate. But we also get to learn a lot by playing in these different spaces. And one of the biggest reasons we can do that is because design thinking is a real-world skill. So when we teach it to young people in schools, they get to take it into the workplaces too. Oh, that's so nice. So you are really collaborating with the schools in California and you are teaching people the design thinking in the exact institution? Or it's like, for example, that to me, in Europe can actually connect with you and you can also give me some coaching in design thinking?
00:14:50
Oh, yeah. No, I mean, we do this worldwide. In November, actually, we're in Dubai, Malaysia, Singapore, and Thailand. So it's really a very universal method. And it's a really beautiful way of making people feel energized again. I think burnout, I don't know what you see or what it's like where you are. It would be great to hear from you. But I feel like burnout is just such a big theme for so many people. And I think it's a really beautiful way of making people feel energized again. So, I think burnout is just such a big theme for so many people. And I think burnout is just such that not enjoying work. It's like almost everybody's looking for, what do I really want to be doing?
00:15:20
And sometimes the answer to that isn't, I need to leave and go start my own business. Sometimes it's like, I just need a better work environment. And I just need a better culture and things like that. Do you see that where you are? Yes, it's the same. I think it's the same for worldwide. It's like with COVID, it opened up Pandora's box, I would say, that a lot of people, they started to go on home office. Now a lot of companies, they want the employees back. And it causes a lot of like less transparency between the management, etc. So there is a lot of like prone to the burnout that people, for example, like to work for the companies, but the conditions where they are working are not as pleasant as it can be.
00:16:05
And the only thing is that the change happened so fast that the leadership and the companies just didn't have time to adapt to it. Which I think is causing why the change is so slow, because we just were able during COVID, we were just able to within 24 hours, like everybody go on the home office. And right now, when there is no longer COVID, and we know that it's possible, it's the slow is so the change is so slow. And it just because of the control, because the leadership of the different companies just want to control. And I think that this will change with the next generations coming into the However, it's super big, because during COVID, we could see that even in the big cities, there was much less pollution.
00:16:52
People are happier, less burnt out. People could invest more time, for example, with their kids during family time, because actually, like during COVID-19. I also did research with a European institution on COVID-19 virtual free movement of workers. So it's kind of like correlating with what you're doing as well, where I was actually collaborating with a lot of companies, and I was able to do a lot of things. And I think that's with the European Trade Unions and we were actually researching how the home office and the virtual work is impacting the workers. And we find out that the people who were living in the countries where governments already applied the digital strategies before COVID, the people were much more happier in those countries because they knew immediately from the day number one of the crisis, which was COVID, what they should do.
00:17:43
So they just took their laptop and they went on the home office because they already had, for example, in their contracts written what they should do during home office, how the insurance is, et cetera. And this like virtual scheme is such a big debate, but it seems to me right now after COVID-19, it's a lot taboo that lots of businesses, they made like compromise. Like we will allow it to you just few days and it's really not the design thing. It seems to me, rather a rigid mindset than design thinking in this case. And I think that's such a great point you bring up because it goes back to like the importance of doing this before the thing happens.
00:18:25
So we see that, like, I love that you bring that up, that like people who had been thinking about this before, then when you have something like, you know, Chat GPT or you have something like a pandemic, it's not to say it's not disruptive and obviously they're very different things. But the point is that like, this is just the reality. The reality of the world now, you know, like we never know like what's going to happen tomorrow. Things move quicker than they have ever moved before. So just being reflective and thinking about and noticing like, okay, these are the things that we're seeing. These are like the signals that we see of things coming, of things changing, allows you to just have more time to think about what you want your strategy to be.
00:19:06
Otherwise, what happens is when it comes and then you have to respond, it's like you're being forced, and then you just don't have the time to think. There's too much pressure, too much stress, and you don't get to make the kinds of decisions you might make had you not been in such a pressured situation. So I love hearing that reinforcement that like if you engage in this ahead of time, you know, which is still not too late, right? Like that's the point of like, I think having these conversations right now is to really encourage people. Like we need to rethink like the 40 hour work week and people coming into an office is gone, right? That's not even a next generation thing. That was like our generation thing, right?
00:19:41
And if you want to keep and retain the best people, like, look at like, I'm in California, you're in the Canary Island. Like the world is just such an incredible place with whom we can connect with and how that being able to like see that as an opportunity and embrace that and reimagine how we work and also how we learn in our schools, I think is just like, it's such an exciting time to like be part of this work. Yeah, it's a really amazing. And as you said, like everything is happening so fast. I just cannot right now, like it just like popped into my mind because everybody is right now speaking about everything. AI agents that they're coming like pretty soon.
00:20:15
Not that like they are already like to some extent like out there, like we can say that GPD is our assistant right now, but that there will be like a much more AI assistance in the future. And when this will happen and there will be a big boom about it, around it. I just like the board will just be so fast because you just like right now, you have one position at work and you are just there yourself physically or like, virtually or whatever. But then like when there will be like AI assistance, for example, 10, 20 per one person, we will be able to do work much faster. And so you can imagine like how fast we will go with the evolution and you will no longer need, for example, like 8,000 of employees.
00:21:01
You will need just, for example, like half of it. But it doesn't mean that like delays from the companies will be, of course, like it will be big shock, for example, for the people. But then, it might also be that, like these people can open like their AI agencies. They can like start on new opportunities because again, like this new phenomenon, which is coming, will open totally a new door to a new opportunities. Like for example, what was it during COVID-19? It happened from one day to another. The restaurants closed, hotel closed, corporation closed. Of course, it had like negative impacts on the people, on the businesses. As the next phenomenon will have. But then it opened another door because we are leading to something new. And this new is like super exciting.
00:21:52
And we need to, what you should do if you are not listening to us, I think is that like you should be going with this change like step by step because right now, if you already are mastering ChatGPT, you will not be impacted that much by the AI agents that are coming. And I'm still like a bit, really like sometimes when I see people that they are like avoiding the AI, like, no, I'm not using ChatGPT. No, I'm not using Copilot and other AI. I don't believe in this. It's like the boom when it will come, it will be such a big shock that, yeah, this might be really, really groundbreaking. I think you're so right.
00:22:35
And, you know, like we always like to say, like it's also, I think sometimes because of how we grow up in school and how we're used to it, how we're used to work being, I see a lot of people who are like waiting for somebody else to tell them what to do. And one of the things that we say a lot to people, just to like preserve your own, just to have agency over what comes next is it's not somebody else's job to redefine your role. I think many people's roles are going to change. I think people try to like be overly like sensitive and comforting, like, oh no, like you're human, like no one will ever replace you. But I don't think that's going to be the reality.
00:23:12
I think we're going to see AI advance rapidly. I think we already are, and I think there's going to be a lot of people who are going to face a lot of disruption in their roles. And I always say it's like, it's never going to replace you maybe a hundred percent, right? But if it replaces you even like, so like I really love the research that Eric Brynjolfsson does. And one of the things that he says is like, AI isn't good at jobs, AI is good at tasks. But if AI can do, let's say even 40% of your tasks, does that mean then, then tomorrow that like, you're not going to get 40% of your salary or that now you're a halftime worker instead of a full-time person?
00:23:47
Like these are the kinds of like societal, like cultural norms. Like we have to really start discussing because we could not figure out remote work, right? Like I can't see you. So I don't believe you're working. Now you have AI tools that are going to do 40% of your task. And we think we're going to be okay. Like this is going to be a really, really, really hard disruption. But I think if you're the kind of person who's like, oh my God, with AI, yes, it can do 40%. But now I'm able to do this extra 20% that I wasn't able to do before. Doesn't always mean more hours. It means impact. And that's the shift. I think we're going to have to start making it, like, it'll be really interesting.
00:24:22
It's like back in the last industrial revolution, how they went from like a gazillion hours to eight hours. And like, that was their big achievement that we've had for like the last hundred years. I think this next hundred years is going to be moving away from the number of hours you work to how much impact you make. Because I can make an impact in one hour, right? Like, there's things that I can do in one hour. I don't need to be sitting here for eight hours to do the same thing. So I shouldn't be judged in the same way. And I think that's a really, really, really hard mindset shift from education all the way to workplaces. But I'm really curious because I've been wanting to ask somebody this and I just haven't, this is perfect.
00:24:59
Do you feel like, because, okay, in America, everything's way more like capitalistic, corporate, like we don't get like those healthcare benefits and like all these other things you see sometimes in places. Like, you know, I was born in London, like it's like night and day here to there. Do you feel like people there are less worried about this? And like, you feel like those societies might be able to adapt better than like here. Like, I'm curious to hear from you, like what you hear from people in the trade-off. This is a really good question. I was actually thinking about it recently because I was in Mexico and I met lots of US people there. And I really feel that the mindset in US is different than in Europe.
00:25:38
In the sense that it's in Europe sometimes even like, from the business, because I'm also a business owner. And here in Europe, when you say that you are business owner, that you are working on your little thing, people are like, yeah, sure. Like, you know, like you will bankrupt sooner or later. And people are not that much enthusiastic as they are in the US. When I'm coming to US, for example, I was in January in Las Vegas for the conference, tech conference, and I was just in the elevator. And there were some Americans just asking me, you know, like, 'yeah, what do you do?' And I was like, 'yeah, I have Innovatology and we do like podcasts and stuff.' And he was like, 'oh my God, it's so cool.
00:26:16
I really love it.' I said, 'yeah, send me the link.' He said, 'here is my Instagram.' He said, 'I really support you.' And it was just in the elevator. And I was like, 'wow, this is the mindset. This is what I love.' But then it's also that I feel that here in Europe, it's that we have this like a safety net that we have this like a health insurance. We have the societal like safety net that we cannot go really like a low because it's like we are supported by the system, by the governments. If for example, you don't have work, you get paid for your children, for your sickness, for everything. So people feel so much comfortable and this is why they are not going that much into the risks.
00:27:02
Like for example, a business. When you get to your business, you are losing a bit of safety net at some point. And this is what I feel that the system in Europe is neither all advantage nor disadvantage. It's a disadvantage for the business owners because you need to be really brave to find your community who can support you whereas in US, you feel really supported by our other business owners because it's a risk or nothing. It's like, I feel that in US, it's also like different mentality around this. But on the other hand, it's advantage because when there are changes like this, we have this safety net that is supporting us. I mean, it depends also on the different member states.
00:27:44
So for example, when I was doing the research on the virtual free movement of workers, it was only on the European Union. And we find out that, for example, the best performing countries in the digital skills and digital strategies were Netherlands, Estonia, Ireland. Whereas I'm originally from the Czech Republic and Czech Republic is below average. And it's really, really important for us. It's really bad even now. It's right now, it's like four years after COVID. And when I am speaking with people from Czech Republic, they think right now that the biggest innovation is Slack. And I'm like, oh my God, but Slack for me was like maybe five, 10 years even like ago when it was like super, you know?
00:28:26
And it's like really big like differences in the different countries because each of the member states in the EU is governed differently in the digital. So I also believe that it's like, you know, it's like, you know, I think that when it comes to the new evolving technologies, like in this case, we are speaking about the AI agents that the different member states will be like approaching it slightly differently. But on the other hand, the legislation is done on the European level. So the EU is always making sure that they are protecting the consumers inside the EU. So like, for example, the AI act that was published quite recently, there are like advantages and disadvantages of the AI act that was published quite recently.
00:29:07
There are like advantages and disadvantages of the AI act that was published quite recently. There are like advantages and disadvantages I feel that like US has more like, yes, let's do it. I love it. It's new. I'm not, you know, I'm fearless and stuff like this, whereas we are more like, I'm not sure, like, is it like safe? You know, I like my comfortable safety net. And so it depends. Yeah, I know. And I think that's such a good point because I think that's the thing right now. Like there's no like right or wrong, but it's like really thinking about like, what do we need to create to help people like all benefits, you know, from sort of like what's happening instead of like, just this like small group over here.
00:29:42
Yeah, I also have a question because like, where did you start it with the design thinking? Like for how long are you actually applying this methodology? Where did you learn from who or where? Yeah. Oh my God. So like, it was really interesting. There were like three things that happened sort of like all at the same time, very much like serendipity. So the first one was I had shared, right? Like I was a high school history teacher and my sister, was in a graduate school program, a medical school program at USC. And her school was using iPads, but like they weren't really like doing a lot with them. And so by working with her basically long story short, I ended up getting hired and I became their director of innovative learning, but I was a history teacher and it was like a med school program.
00:30:28
And I was like, so out of place. And so I was just like reading, observing, like things like that. And then at the same time I read this book, a book called The Second Machine Age. And the last line of the book is: Technology is not destiny. We shape our destiny. And I was like, okay, well, how do we shape our destiny? Like, okay, I want to do that. And then maybe two, three weeks later, I went to a conference and education conference, and there were two first-grade teachers, and these two first-grade teachers were talking about how they were using this design thinking method to teach literacy, engineering, and technology. And I was like, Oh, that sounds interesting. So I went there, and it was so fascinating.
00:31:06
To me, because whereas with most things we feel like we have to throw out everything we were doing and just start from scratch. They had just slightly tweaked the assignment. And so instead of just having kids read the story, answer some questions and things like that, they had the students read the story and then each student got to choose to be a character in that story. So it was the story was called 'Catch That Rat.' Like, you know, typical, like grandma's catching the rat, the kids catching the rat, like everyone's trying to catch the rat. And so the kids got to choose one of those characters, and then look at like, okay, what problem do you think that character has in the story?
00:31:43
So for example, one of the students chooses the rat and they're like, well, everyone's scared of the rat, but the rat's just hungry and just cold and just wants a place to go and like be warm, you know? And so then they have to like make a solution like, okay, well, how are you going to solve for that? Like everyone's scared of the rat. What are you going to do? And so not only are they reading the story, they're also creating a story they're making their problem-solving. They're doing all these other things. They're little, little, little things along the way. So one of the students ends up taking like a paper towel roll, covering it in some foil and like making like a little machine where like you go in as a rat, you come out as a human, you go in as a human, you come out as a rat as a way of being able to like experience what the, what it's like for the other person.
00:32:23
And so I was just like, oh my God, this was such a mind-blowing concept. You just made a small little change that has such a huge impact that was covering all these skills and all these things that we hear other people talking about. So then when I was like, oh, when I went back to USC and that was the method I kind of used, I was like, oh my God, because prior to that, the way we introduced technology was like, here's this application. Here's the amazing things you can do. Here's another application the next week and the amazing things you can do. Whereas with design thinking, it was like, okay, no, like we're not going to tell you about these apps. We're first going to ask you what what's working well for you right now.
00:32:59
What's not working well. And then can technology even be a solution? Sometimes it is. Sometimes it isn't. But one of my favorite parts of design thinking is when I was like, oh my gosh, there's so many projects that we ended up doing. And this was 2014, by the way. This was like 10 years ago. So one of my favorite projects we did, the students in their first year had to do a 40-page research paper. And the goal of the research paper was to build empathy with the communities because they were going to go doing rotations in those communities down the line. And what we ended up learning was the students were just Googling the information and writing the paper. And so, again, we took that method from design thinking: from what we thought was going to all the first-grade teachers' approach.
00:33:37
We didn't change the whole assignment; we didn't get rid of writing; we didn't do any of that. We just changed the prompt instead of write a 40-page paper on xyz, it was: 'If this community had a story for healthcare providers, what would that story be?' And instead of just writing a paper, they had to do the research and the writing-but that was just one part. They also had to make a documentary, like a very short film, like a two to three minutes; they had to interview people and they had to say: 'Okay, what's the story this community wants to tell them? And how are you going to tell that story?' So again, we didn't change and throw out everything, but a small tweak, leveraging the tools and technology we had allowed it to be a completely different experience.
00:34:17
And they do that assignment till this day. Like I always love going on the YouTube channel and seeing each year the different videos and the different communities that they go to; that was sort of my first entry point in 2014-and like I said, it just changed my life. not just professionally and work but also personally my own mindset became so much more open-minded i felt so much more confident when i was put in a new situation because i always knew i could rely on this method to be able to figure things out and that's the beauty of design thinking like you might not know what the answer is but you'll you you have the confidence that you'll figure it out yeah this is a really important and i'm always telling i don't know if you also have this but um and there is like some big in front of you there is like deadline approaching and then you are just having this kind of feeling like oh my god this I cannot make this.
00:35:09
Oh my god, like stress and nervousness and stuff, and then just the acknowledgement like you figured out in the past already like worse things you can figure out also, this just to like calm down first that like actually like you will figure it out sooner or later, this is just like you were, you have been in worse situations uh, this will just not disrupt uh who you are what you are doing uh, it will just sit down it's a really important like a realization that like how you should approach the issues and how you should deal with them and that design thinking is actually giving you the methodology to then find. A solution to your issues that you are having, I also like what you said that uh you said a question like is the technology actually a solution because sometimes I see even with my clients that they are really like
00:36:01
hardly trying to figuring out like oh my god what software I need or like something and then I'm like you know you can also do it still like as a human manually like sometimes you don't need like technology for everything, for example one of the stories like in Mexico it was a bit um really simple stuff like as WhatsApp and my friend just wanted to like send me uh some telephone number on WhatsApp that I will like. Uh, write to that number something. She was just like next to me with her WhatsApp and she was like, 'Oh my god, I don't know how to do it.' And I was like, 'Oh my god this is the WhatsApp number that you should text, uh, let me send it to you.
00:36:36
Then she was like, 'Oh my god' but I need to like copy that number, I need to like create a new contact, I need to like send it to and I was like, 'But I can also just look at your phone and just like write down the number that you have like in front of me. Like we don't need to do this whole like process.' And like this is what I realized that this is like happening a lot in um, the digital sphere currently because they every day There is new software release, there are like project management tools, like so many of them, and it's like some of them are less expensive, some of them are more expensive than you choose the one that you actually don't want to invest in, and then you are just stuck with it.
00:37:18
You pay big bills even though that one that was cheaper was actually a much smarter solution but you didn't go with the design thinking to actually define what you exactly need to, then like match it with the software. You just went for the software which was having probably the best marketing options who just caught you with like the best offer sales and whatever. And then you ended up just having more bills from the software, and I think that I'm not the only one, but the software can really add up, especially when you're having your business. It's like a never-ending story with the bills, absolutely oh my god, there's like always something new, always something different, always all the time. You're so right; so yeah, so how do you actually approach uh this like a new technology sphere?
00:38:10
Because I also saw that uh, you actually worked for Apple for some time, so is Apple also using the design thinking or what are the other methodologies that uh they are using and what uh, actually you learned. The most from that uh career because after the Apple, you actually launched your own company and you're like, 'Oh I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna do this.' So like, what was the step like? Yeah, all right, like now I have enough and I'm going for my own business. Yeah, absolutely! I mean, I feel like I forget what the story is and which one it is, but there's a story I think it's the mouse... um, iD (ideo) partnered with Apple, I believe when they were making some of those like early things.
00:38:50
But yeah, I would absolutely say design thinking is very much a part of the culture at Apple. One of the biggest things that I would say Is a bigger part of the culture is collaboration, and that's why design thinking by default kind of becomes what it is, like even if you think about like the Apple Watch and like how they're always listening to their users, always listening to their customers, always you know engaging with people in the field um even when in my role I was working with schools, always talking with schools, always being connected, how can we support you like what's going on just really being that observer and that partner um but I feel like one of the biggest there's two really big things I learned from Apple that I feel like once I left I realized, like, okay, wow, like this isn't everywhere.
00:39:26
And number one is the ability to have hard conversations. I feel like a lot of people are very afraid to, and I think that's just part of the overall culture today where, like, you express an idea that's different or you say something that you don't agree with, and all of a sudden it's like, 'You must hate me' or 'This is like awful or 'That person's mean to me.' And so this culture where we can't, like, really interrogate ideas is very dangerous for the future because it means that now I'm afraid to tell you about a challenge, I see a flaw, I see something being able to just be comfortable being like Okay, like, not that's not good enough,
00:40:01
like we need to do better or, like, that's a great first draft but, like, let's think about this, let's think about this, let's think about this, like really interrogating your idea, like as much as you can with as many different perspectives as you can, allows everyone to be more successful and one of my um one of my favorite quotes on this came from so when I when I went to do my research I did it with the teachers that those two first grade teachers that I learned from I went back to their school to go learn from them how did you do this because no one else seems to be able to like how did you do this and They were like, 'I don't know how did you do this' and I was like, 'really, really good lines, I would say it's like the iceberg, you know, you just see this on the top, you see all the innovation but there's all these things underneath you don't see.
00:40:39
And one of the things they said is when we start with an idea or you put an idea on the table, it's no longer my idea or your idea, it's our idea. So now we own this idea, right? Like collectively. So now when we say something, it's not like I'm attacking you and your idea, it's our idea' and so we're all putting in our diverse perspectives, thoughts. We don't have to agree, but we do have to get comfortable. With it, and we have to agree with it, and we have to agree with it, and we have to back and forth with that interrogation of that idea. That's one thing that I feel like really allowed me to do things, really pushed me and my thinking um, that put me where I am today.
00:41:13
And then the second big thing, like goes hand in hand with that, is the culture of collaboration um, it's always like not just collaboration with people on your team but collaboration with people across other teams as well, so knowing how to initiate that conversation, knowing how to say like okay, hey I have this idea, but I need to involve this person, this person, this person this person how do i get that conversation and how do i get that conversation and how do i get that conversation that ball rolling so that i'm not like well i had an amazing idea and nobody wanted to do it you know like that's just like again another thing
00:41:38
we hear a lot like and i left apple i'm just like oh my god like this is not how it works like even right now when people see policies that come down or people see things that inability to take initiative though i'm gonna wait for somebody else to do it that's not my job to do it good for you if you want to have that mindset it's a losing mindset in this world and so the more you are that person that Takes initiative that brings people together, that brings people together, that brings people together, that brings people together. That's like building trust, and this is why like we love it. We talk a lot about Amy Edmondson's research because if people don't feel safe, you'll never get that culture, and that's why we say like cultures of innovation begin with the culture of empathy.
00:42:14
Because if you don't have that culture of trust and safety and empathy amongst your people, they'll never get to a place where they're around a table interrogating each other's ideas. So, I would say those like very nuanced cultural Elements were just great to be a part of. Wow, I really love it, especially the one like ability to have hard conversations and I would like to ask: how do you think that is? So in Apple, I know that it's probably like cultural, but for example in the companies that I ever worked in, it was either like really hierarchical so like you should be like really afraid of your hierarchy or there was, for example, like a conversation like 'uh' it's like it's not hard, it's just like how you are saying it which is like it's not like...
00:43:01
I also was like always like 'yeah', but it's I mean it's like alarming; like we should start to do something, and they're always like, 'It's not alarming.' It's how you are telling it to other people, and I'm like, 'Yeah, but how you want to like it's just like if like my team is burning out with something. I'm just telling you, we are burning out, and you should like help me to get things done together. Like for example, if you have like two different teams, and like you exactly should have the initiative together to solve the issue because you are working for the same vision; so why do you think that uh Apple is uh such a good company for like having a hard conversation?
00:43:43
so how did it actually look in your meetings that like people were like open to this i mean i wasn't i mean obviously i wasn't there from the beginning so like it's hard to say i mean i do think that like culture of excellence is really just a value that like they have like i imagine it probably came from the steve jobs days i mean like yeah i'm not sure exactly how it came to be in that way but i do think it's a place where people really care about the work they do and the impact they have um i think every single person there really really genuinely cares like this is really important work like we really believe like it's it's really Important work and our work really makes a difference, like that, that's, and I think those two beliefs really um they put you in a completely different mindset for how you're going to work, and how you approach things.
00:44:32
And because everybody believes that, like yeah, like I think there's also a lot of humility, um, there's a lot of humility there. It's really where you see somebody like I remember I never really encountered somebody who was like 'I'm just better than everybody you know, type thing. Like it's everybody has a bit of imposter syndrome if you will, like you know, like I can't believe I'm here. I can't believe I'm a part of this, like every time you walk into Apple Park, like it never gets old. Like I used to do a lot of um what we call executive briefings which are where like companies or um education leadership teams will come to spend a day to learn and to learn and to learn and to learn and to learn and to learn and to learn and to learn about the technology to learn about the future, learn about like you know different like possibilities for like where the future is going and what we should be thinking about.
00:45:08
And I used to facilitate those and I remember every single morning when I used to like walk onto like first it was Infinite loop and then Apple Park campus, that feeling never gets old, it's just like wow, like you know, this is, this is not just such an amazing place to be but it's such important work we're doing, and now when I think about a lot of the things that we're seeing now, you know Apple has one a report I used to share a lot called 'Creativity and Education' and it was done in uh maybe 2000, you know like 20, I can't remember when but it was done like um let's see when I
00:45:38
was 2021 maybe 2019 or something, it was done basically it was done before the pandemic and one of the biggest things that talked about was like just the importance of like all these Skills that now are essential back then we were talking about like, hey automation is going to happen, like this is why it's so important to redesign the way you work, like thinking about mobile technology, thinking about all these other things that now everyone's like, 'Oh my god, I need this,' and I'm like, 'Oh my god, I need this,' and I'm like, 'Oh my god'... whereas you know just thinking about things before anything, just having been a part of
00:46:04
a culture and a community in a workplace where people were thinking about those things before allowed me to think about things in a different way as well because it Wasn't something hypothetical or something that, like, wasn't there-it was something we were experiencing every day, and so I think that's sort of like that, that that gratitude maybe for what you do and knowing that you make a difference, and everybody makes a difference in some way. I just don't think that's such an embedded part of everything, and I think that's something that everybody's culture, and so I think when we do create spaces where we remind people like 'hey the work we do really
00:46:34
matters' and 'like you know you really make a difference you show up differently to what you do, and you're more willing-you realize the stakes are much higher like this isn't just about putting something out or just doing another presentation no this is going to impact the decisions people make like what you choose impacts the future of these kids in these schools and what they're going to have access to so like i need to do the best possible job i ever can to help you see and understand what you're doing and what you're doing and what you're doing and what you're seeing in that future and where we're going because it's not really in front
00:47:03
of you right now but it will be and here we are today yeah the vision the mission of being part something bigger and Like changing the society having impact on the people I really love it, and so like now back to you, like how did you then like decided okay, like I'm uh I'm going for my own company, yeah, so as amazing as it is and amazing as everything is, there are definitely limitations, and one of the limitations is not being able to do like all these kinds of other things, right? The side projects of this and that. So it got to a point where I think it was um honestly it was the pandemic and uh I was um my sister was in London with her family, and so I went to go spend some time there with her, just being able to experience like remote work and just having Done all this research um and having like I was at that time the documentary hadn't come out
00:47:59
was sitting on all this footage and all this like I had this amazing story and it was almost like, okay you could stay where you are and be comfortable because it's very comfortable or you can make a decision or place a bet that this research you have is the future. And I thank God every single day that I did that because the one thing it allowed me to do because I left in 2021 and so by leaving early, I was talking about this sort of before a lot of other people were which had GBT, and so it really allowed me to build a strong brand foundation. Mean people had heard it from me even prior to that because they had seen the research, design thinking like it's a very natural evolution.
00:48:40
But I always that that was it, was honestly just like this moment where it was like, okay you're gonna have to choose one path or the other-either you stay here and you just keep doing this, or you go and you like pursue this like new, like technology, and like all these other things that are going to come. And there was one resource in particular that really helped me make that decision, and it was 'The Spark Type' by Jonathan Fields. It's a free assessment online, but what I love about 'The Spark Type' is Is it talks about what energizes you, and so I was like, very much like because okay, a lot of people would always tell me things like, wow, you can just never stay in one place for a long time, you're never committed, you're always like jumping from one thing to the next.
00:49:18
So when I was leaving Apple, I was like, oh my god, am I going to regret this? Like, am I being ungrateful? Am I just jumping from one thing to the next? And when I got the Spark type, what it told me was that I was like a scientist and it's like, you enjoy the spark type, and you're like, oh my god, I'm going to the problem space once the problem is solved, you want a new problem to solve. And I think that's very different from telling somebody you're not committed, and so I think sometimes, like growing up, we do hear language about ourselves that informs how we think about ourselves and the choices we make.
00:49:43
And that's why I think it's so, so, so important to get clarity on your skills, your strengths, your motivations, and what drives you because what that looks like to other people might be very different than what it actually is internally that energizes you at work. So I always say, like this is the most inspiring way to get clarity on your skills and your stability, the most like like everything. But it's honestly the most at peace I've ever been in anything I've ever done, so I think there are like just different things that can help you along the way in making those decisions. But I think a big part of it is having confidence, but also having experience.
00:50:15
I got a lot of experience leading into this that I was like, 'Okay, like, there were enough data points to show me this was a decision that was viable.' It's such a beautiful story and also, uh, in a lot of stories that you told us, there is your sister, so I guess that she was part of, of your success and what you are building, that it's, uh, it's such a beautiful to see, uh, that you have. A really nice relation and after our conversation, so I will be doing Spark-type if you can also then send me in the chat uh here like the link to the Spark-type so I can also link it to this episode, so that people can try to do it.
00:50:59
And also we would like to read definitely your research, is it somewhere available online? Yeah, so like okay more than the research because the research is like written in a very specific way. I have a book coming out on November 7th which is the research, but it's written in a more human way so you'll enjoy reading the book more than the research. But the book is called Designing Schools um why design thinking. Makes you irreplaceable in the age of AI, and it's coming out on November 7th. But there is a free documentary online, um, it was funny, you know? I thought like, 'Oh, we'll do a documentary who likes everyone's gonna watch the one-hour documentary' and I'm like, 'Oh, movie!' Not the bug, and everybody was like, 'No, you need a bug.' You need a bug, so I was like, okay.
00:51:34
And uh, is there some somewhere, like for example, baiting list or how can we know that uh, like, I know that it's like November 7th, but um, in digital age, everybody wants to just get a reminder and like get it into our mailbox or like do you have your own website or where we can check that? Yeah, absolutely. it's just um designing schools . Org forward slash book, um, so if you go there, yeah, you'll be able to get it, and then I'll link this for you, um, all here, so then you can have the spark type, and then can you also link your research, I don't know if that's available with that study you were talking about where you looked at like the impact of digital strategies?
00:52:11
Yes, I will also put the link in the chat so first I will pin for our audience the spark type and it's perfect, so yes. So I have a last question from my side and it's about uh what advice would you give to people who are starting with their own business after their career and so you had a really successful career and like I think that also the switch between like the career comfortable path to actually go more into the unknown of the business owner and your own enterprise, it's always like a really hard decision. So uh what would be one thing that you would advise uh to the people um to actually embark on the journey of business and how they should proceed with that?
00:53:13
Wow, that is such a good question, um I always think so number one spark type, I think being having an understanding about why you feel and think a certain way is so important because otherwise other people's thoughts and opinions will overshadow sometimes your insights and your intuition so this is the number one it's getting really clear like this is just who i am this is what drives me this is what motivates me and also knowing the opposite is true that's also what i love about the spark type it doesn't just tell you what energizes you it also tells you what doesn't energize you which also gives you insight and so that's number one number two i think you have to find spaces to experiment and explore i think you know like so throughout my entire like you know what was it like 2014 to all the way up until
00:53:59
like you know i know 2010 is when i started my blog i think writing Brings so much clarity to any idea, and I know like people think oh, cursive writing is so under threat. But I think there's a really big difference between writing you do in school and writing you do to think and learn. Right? Like why we read books, why we do all these things. That's not what writing in school usually looks like. And so I think writing just helps you unpack ideas, whether it's journaling, whether it's whatever you want to do. I think it helps you unpack ideas and find connections and insights for some people it might be video, it could be anything.
00:54:31
For you, but finding a method where you are constantly just Journaling and reflecting is really important, then I think that helps give you the data you need to look at like where your direction and focus should be placed. The biggest benefit everybody has today that didn't exist before is, in my opinion, the fact that you can like now go in and be like hey these are all my journals or like journal with Chachi PT. We have a course called the AI Boot Camp and in our course one of the first exercises people do is like we take the Atomic Habit and we take the Atomic Habit and we take the Atomic Habit and we take the atomic habits framework and we have you do these certain journal activities for.
00:55:03
a week with chachi pt and it's by far people's favorite activity so just seeing okay so what i'm thinking what could my first step be in creating a business or creating a product that's actually going to like be financially sustainable as well so i think like that that that process helps you kind of determine what it is you want to do in a way that is going to like you know help generate some income because you want to be able to test something to see what your audience wants what people want where you feel your strengths are and what you even enjoy doing and then from there when you get that data from people like maybe i'm starting With a workshop, maybe I'm starting with a consulting service, maybe I'm starting with a free PDF guide like it just gives you the insight you need to figure out, okay, where to kind of place your focus.
00:55:44
I think through that process when you're also talking to people what are their challenges? Just using design thinking even going into Chachi Pt and being like I want to use the design thinking method to do just think about how I could start this new business, like, to do XYZ right and then I'm going to i mean today, like websites can be generated like so quickly, like you can get anything up and going at such low cost. That it's truly remarkable, so the most important thing is to really zone in on what problem are you solving and what energizes you in in that part of that problem that you are looking to solve because you want to be able to wake up every single day super energized doing what you're doing, and I really think balance it out like I think you know doing that while you're still somewhere sometimes can be harder but that's also why you have the luxury of doing it
00:56:29
of like the stability from whatever you're doing that you can take those small steps and you don't have to have the pressure of like oh my god, I need to be bringing in this much. Right now, and like this, and that. So, find those spaces where you can balance like that stability while you figure out what those other pieces might be, because sometimes you can let this passively run here and you might be very happy here, and I actually think the more workplaces embrace the idea that not everybody just wants to do one thing, the more successful everybody's going to be. Individuals will be happier because they'll have their different outlets, companies will be happier because you won't constantly be losing people or having to retain people and control them.
00:57:04
It just is not the future of what work will look. Like, and so giving people those opportunities for those different income streams, I think becomes really important as well, so that would be kind of the first place to start, I guess. Like that's so beautiful. And uh, just last tip because you said that you are journaling with Chad GPT but I just cannot like imagine how do you do so because so like can you just give us a quick on how to journal with Chad GPT because I'm doing journaling myself and I think that this is adding the authenticity to yourself, and then it's like, you know, step by step, you are like journaling, you do the content, you feel overwhelmed all the time but like pushing.
00:57:43
The boundaries just add up, and like with journaling you are just keeping the authenticity and it can even turn the Chad GPT can then like give you the content based on your journaling. But how do you journal with Chad GPT actually? You definitely want to start with some kind of framework so like whether it's like you know Full Focus, Michael Fulham or we really like Atomic Habits because the whole point of journaling right is to impact your daily habits like small steps whatever. So we basically say like I don't have the exact prompt on me but it's something along the lines of like okay for the next five days I'm gonna um do a journal activity with you and i want you to kind of you know integrate the ideas from atomic habits to help me reflect on my goals my um reflections and like we have a couple other areas we say and you can do this with some of the typical tenha and then i'll be putting together an a couple of ways.
00:58:30
You can write in your journal, take a photo and upload it in each day, or you can just sit there and type with ChatGPT. You might type somewhere else, copy and paste it in. It's up to you how you want to do it. But by going in, and we have a prompt every day, but by going in every day and kind of doing this journal reflection, ChatGPT can do the one thing that is very hard for us to do, and that analyzes your reflections. So at the end of the week, it can tell you, wow, these are the top three things you really talked about. You can ask it, like, what are things that I should be thinking about that, you know, maybe I'm not based on what I've been journaling about?
00:59:05
So it's really hard to go back and do a data analysis on your journal entries. What words have you used the most? What is my tone being like the most? Am I happy? Am I nervous? Like, what kinds of sentiments are you picking up from my journaling and my reflections? What are things that maybe I'm overthinking that I shouldn't be? So like, you can like basically talk about what you're thinking about. And then you can ask it, like, what are the things that you talk to your journal in a way that you just, it's hard to do unless you're going to go back and read and count every word, letter, you know, type thing and do the analysis. Most people barely have time to journal, let alone analyze their thoughts.
00:59:35
So the fact that you can take this information that we have in this way that we're collecting and gathering, being able to go and put it in, and you can even do audio now as well, right? We can now even upload audio files. Like there's so many different mediums through which you can document your thoughts, but going into that and telling it, hey, at the end of this week, what's one thing I should be thinking about? What's one goal or small habit I should integrate? And then you can ask it, like, what are the things that you're thinking for next week? It just becomes like a way of like self-reflection, self-awareness and things like that. Wonderful. I really love it as a closure of our podcast. So thank you so much, Sabba.
01:00:07
And this was the last tip of today's podcast about how design thinking can make you irreplaceable from the AI. So I really learned a lot, actually. And you have a really impressive story. We took it from like the business through your career. And I think it's really important to have that kind of also, like, I think that there was a lot of added value about how to use the chat GPT or even like what are the main takeaways from working with Apple and also about your business, the designing schools and that your book is coming really soon. So I think that like not only me, but also other of our audience are really excited to tune in for this podcast, because as you said, like this was a pivotal point in your in your career in like going more into the business and like turning it into something a bit different.
01:01:04
So thank you so much for this podcast. And, you, our audience, you can also get excited for our next guest, which will be actually on Wednesday. We are now doing like two podcasts per week about the latest innovation and tech. So we have even upgraded now with our guests, because you were asking about it a lot. So tune in on Wednesday for the next podcast; you can find it on LinkedIn, Meetup or on Eventbrite. And you can register there for the next episode. So thank you so much, and see you on Wednesday. Bye. Thank you. Bye.
