00:02:04
So while I am a consultant, I am teaching, I am imparting education as an author, as a speaker, as a trainer, as a faculty and as a swimming coach, I am imparting education. I'm teaching and teaching is my passion. So that is actually the one thing, you know, that I'm really passionate about. It's education. And this education is manifesting in six different things that I just introduced myself with. And if you want to be a teacher, there is another thing which is very important. You also have to be an explorer means you also have to be a continuous learner. So I am an explorer as well. So to summarize my introduction again in just two words, I am an explorer and I am a teacher.
00:02:55
I think that's a very nice red thread throughout the different talents in that you're managing. It's also a way, I think, of giving back to the community, which is always a great thing to do. And sorry for interrupting you, Marie, but I was really curious about asking this question because like I sometimes find it super difficult already to manage two or three tasks in like three different roles in a day. So I was just wondering how it can be done. Yeah, and what actually drives me or motivates me to do all these different things is that because it resonates with my passion. Right. And I really feel passionate. I feel fulfilled and satisfied when I'm doing these things. So that actually keeps me going because everything boils down to one single thing, teaching or education to educate people.
00:03:46
Yes. But there also has to be synergies between these different roles that you are having that because you are, as we already discussed, the author, the speaker, the business trainer. I think that also it goes one hand with another that you learn from each other roles that brings, for example, to the other role. So how actually, for example, your swimming experience adds value to the business in this case? Wow. Swimming experience. So I have been doing swimming for past 30 years. So since I was age 10 and I am able to now swim very comfortably. I do freestyle and I coach. So how it adds value to the business? OK, because over this period of time after swimming, I have realized that water, first of all, is a very friendly environment.
00:04:47
So water is our friend. OK, that's the mindset that you have to go in when you actually do swimming. And why water is our friend for a very simple reason is that because it's a natural tendency of our body to float on the water. Correct. So water is very friendly. It helps us float. And also being friendly. Water is also very uncontrolled and unpredictable environment because when you are in the water, you don't know what is coming next. For example, if you go to a beach and go for swimming, suddenly a wave might come. OK, and the water might go in your nose and mouth or maybe a little fish might pop in, you know, like that. So things are very unpredictable in the in water.
00:05:31
So the lessons to learn is that whenever you are in an unpredictable environment, things may not happen as per your plans. You anticipate something and it may not work. So when you are in water, you have to quickly adjust or quickly adapt to the situation. You have to take quick decisions and take quick actions. Otherwise, what happens? You end up in a panicky situation. And when you start panicking in water, then everything goes for a toss. All the skills, all the trainings that you take, everything goes for a toss. And that happens with many people who are learning swimming or who are the beginners. So it happens with them. Once the panic sets in, everything like goes for a toss. For I can give an example.
00:06:19
Say if you are underwater and you want to come to the surface, so you have to flap right to come to the surface. But it may happen that you anticipate that I might be at the surface when my head will be up in the air in a certain amount of time. But it doesn't happen, right? You are still underwater. So in that case, most people panic because they anticipate something. But the output is something else. So in that case, how do you react? Is that you have to make a quick decision and be calm, focus on your technique and just hold your breath longer in the water for some time and continue flapping gently and eventually will come to the surface because that's a tendency of the water to get your body onto the surface.
00:07:04
And how this so it is a very valuable lesson that swimming has taught me. And how do I apply it in my business or in my professional career is these days, especially we are living in the uncertain times, right? It is a time of AI, GenAI, and everyone is like exploring how this technology is going to phase out in the future. We are living in a kind of hype and there is a lot of uncertain uncertainties around it and there is a high risk. So in such situations, one has to really make quick decisions and take quick actions, right? This is what I learned from swimming. One really have to make actions when things are unpredictable.
00:07:48
I mean, take some little actions, but take actions because unless and until you don't act, you are not going to understand what works and what doesn't work. You can just sit down, sit back and speculate. Maybe this might work, that might work. But unless and until you don't take actions, things are not going to work. And if you don't take quick actions, then eventually you are going to panic in business also. And that will come in the form of stress, pressure and all that, you know. So to avoid that, you have to take quick actions. And that is something swimming has taught me that how you have to adjust in an environment which is uncertain and which is uncontrolled. It's really interesting.
00:08:30
Like while you were talking about your story, I also had to think back about, let's say, I was wondering with Marie how the water is at the moment in Croatia because I was thinking back like a year ago and we were actually talking about Chachipiti and Gen AI and we went into the water and the waves were super unpredictable. But as you mentioned, like you just have to stay calm and we just kept on pedaling forward and we managed it through the sea. So I can definitely recognize that. And then the other thing that I that I that I'm taking from here is also like the concept of feel fast to learn faster and to accelerate, because if you feel fast, then you can also jump higher the next time through resilience.
00:09:11
At least that's what I'm taking away. What about you, Marie? I'm rather like thinking about so every time when you have some tough situation in your business, you are imagining that you are underwater. Or what are other of your resilience practices that might help you to go through? Because business is every time to be up and down. And this is also many times the health is going apart with the business so that we need more of the positivity, more of the practices. What would be your recommendation for the people who are in the business that you do and that works for you to not get crazy from your business? So my recommendation is that when you are in such times where there is uncertainty and there is a high risk situation or an environment, it's very important that you stick to your basics and just focus on your talents.
00:10:16
What best you can bring at that moment. And it's very important that you work in a team because in a team, you can leverage talents of everyone. OK, something which you lack your other team member might provide it. And when you work as a team, then you can work on a certain strategy, make a plan of action, a quick fix. But again, you have to really take actions. You know, taking actions is very important because that is the best way that can help you come out of uncertainty and risk, which currently, if you see, many businesses are facing because they are like having a big challenge of AI, GNI in front of them, right? Or any other technologies that come along with that, for example, data or the cloud, you know, all those things.
00:11:08
So my advice is that you have to really leverage your strengths, get in a team, make a certain plan of action and act. You know, acting is very important. Take actions that will really help you go somewhere. Otherwise, you will be just stuck, you know, in a situation where you will just sit down and speculate. And this drive, this ambition to take action, is that also what inspired you to start writing your book? Or what is actually the inspiration that made you write your book? Yes. So writing a book. What actually inspired me to write is that, first of all, the situation that we are in, because I felt that it is the right time for my book to come out because the industry needs my book to come out.
00:12:01
So let me just talk about my book. My first book that I released is called Digital Strategy Framework. So in that book, I have provided the business incumbents, especially the incumbents. OK, now the incumbents are those businesses who are in the business for a very long time, say around more than four to five decades. So the challenge with these business incumbents is that whenever a new technology comes into the market, these businesses are mostly vulnerable because they are not very fast to adapt to this change. And one of the main reasons is that their inherent culture in the business. So many of the businesses, they have a reactive approach towards adoption of new technologies. And there are many challenges that are there in the company. There could be a shortage of competence or budget or strategy.
00:13:04
The leadership is not like very visionary or dynamic. There are many challenges, but strategy is one of the challenge because of lack of a digital transformation strategy. They are really not able to exploit the technology and seek value from it. So that's why I in my book, I have proposed an end to end framework from strategy creation until execution. So if these incumbent business, if they adopt this framework, that can help them streamline their processes and also achieve cost efficiencies. So I saw that such framework does not exist. And that's where I thought that my book should come out to address this strategy issue. But then the bigger problem is a problem of leadership. So that's where I have. So that problem I have addressed in my second book, which is coming out soon.
00:14:02
It's called the Digital Leadership Framework. So in that book, I have created a framework for the leaders whereby they can develop the essential competencies of digital leadership, which can really help them take decisions and drive the AI or JNI transformation in their business. So it had to come out very fast. And also, I have been in the industry for a long time, around more than a decade, around 15 years. And I have taken a lot from the industry, right? I have really like built my career, then developed networks, worked in different environment, traveled to different places. So I have really taken a lot from the industry. So I felt I strongly felt it's time for me to give back something to the industry. So that really inspired me to write.
00:14:57
And actually the whole inception, OK, it began seven years back. But however, I was just I had some blocks, mental blocks and all that. And I thought that I'm not a good writer, you know, so on and so forth. So I had this kind of a mindset. So I just kept on delaying the act of writing. But then it was not it was last year, 2023, that I actually began writing physically, opened my laptop and started typing. But that's when the actual process of writing began. And it took me a year. And in 2024, in February, I launched my first book. And soon, maybe after the summer, I'll be launching my second. So what are the essential competencies that the leaders should take? You are you are faster than me.
00:15:49
I wanted to ask the same question. Can we get a sneak peek? Yes. Yes. So before I answer that question, I would just like to set a background that what is digital leadership, first of all, and why do the leaders need this competencies? So digital leadership is the set of behaviors that a leader must demonstrate to drive digital transformation. That's a very simple definition of digital leadership. So what is this digital leadership? OK, let me just emphasize more on this. So if you see the year 2010, if you go back a decade, the year 2010, we can call it the onset of digital era because that around during that time, the word digital transformation was coined.
00:16:45
And if you observe all the digital transformation technologies like cloud, the AI automation or we had 5G like IOT, all of them, they came up and they rose to prominence and people became commercially aware. And there were lots of ecosystems that were created around it. So I am not saying that these technologies didn't exist before 2010. They did exist, but they were mostly in their R&D state and they really rose to a commercial prominence only after 2010. So that's why we can call the 2010 as the beginning of the digital era. And before that was the pre-digital era. But the problem with the leadership right now is that we are already through into the digital era, like almost a decade. But the digital, but the mindset of the leaders has not changed.
00:17:43
They are still driving the transformation and driving the business with a pre-digital mindset. So everything has changed. The projects have changed. The requirements have changed. The situation has changed. The business dynamics have changed. The business models have changed. The customer requirements have changed. But the leadership has not changed the leadership mindset. It is still it still belongs to the pre-digital era. So what would we do? What would define like a pre-digital mindset in that case in leadership? Very good question. So three points, three points. In the pre-digital age, leaders had power. OK, number one, number two, leaders were supposed to be the experts of everything. The knowers of everything in the pre-digital era. And number three, the leaders mostly they mentored people.
00:18:37
I mean, these were the common if you see. So these are the most common characteristics of a leader in the digital era. However, in the digital era, things have changed. So the leaders, besides having power, they should also empower. That's very important. In the digital era, the leaders should not just be the knower of everything. But the leader should also seek knowledge. Besides sharing knowledge, a leader should also seek knowledge. That is also a very important thing. And third important thing is that besides mentoring, a leader must also reverse mentor. So have the connection with some of the experts who are experts with a certain technology or their junior colleagues and all that. And reverse mentor, get the insights, get fresh perspectives of this age from them.
00:19:35
That's how the dynamics of leadership has changed. And for that, and to really be a true digital leader, there are four observed behaviors. First is learning. OK, very important that a leader must be a champion, our advocate of learning at the same time set a good example for the people to follow. He must be a continuous learner. So learning is very important. Second important behavior is that connecting with people. He needs to connect with people at all different levels in a hierarchy. He may not be connecting with everyone in the company, but at least, you know, some key people or key stakeholders at different levels in the hierarchy. So connecting with people is a very important behavior. Number two, number three is that a leader must know how to leverage data.
00:20:27
There is lots of data flowing in an organization. Correct. So a leader must know how to leverage. And fourth important behavior is that a leader must be able to deliver quick results. So these are four important behaviors of a digital leader. And to demonstrate these behaviors effectively, one must build four key competencies. So that is the main theme of my book. So now let me break the suspense. The four key competencies are first competence is growth mindset. A leader must cultivate growth mindset. Number two, empathy. Very important. Number three, informed decision making. That's the third competence and competence. Number four, fast execution. And all these four competencies, they map to all the four behaviors that I just talked about. So growth mindset enables learning. Empathy enables people connections.
00:21:32
Informed decision making enables leveraging data and fast execution enables delivering results. So in my book, I have provided a detailed framework on how to develop these four competencies. So that is what my book, Digital Leadership Framework, is all about. I have a question about the execution. Why it has to be fast? Why it has to have this phrase of the time? Why not only the execution? Is it like really important to be fast? Yes. Yes, it is very important to be fast. You have to take some actions, some quick actions, because unless and until you don't act, things will not really proceed. I mean, your company might have the best team, a best product or a best ways of working, everything best. But if you don't take action, nothing happens.
00:22:27
So one has to take quick action. So the gap, the time period between a decision and action should be as less as possible. And that is how a leader or that should be the mindset of the leader or the behavior of a leader, because unless and until you don't take actions, you are not able to like proceed or overcome that uncertainty on or risk in of a situation. Correct. You have to take some quick actions. And I'm speaking in the context of the times we are living in, because right now there might be a big question or a big challenge before the leaders. What should we do with AI or the generative AI? Right. So it is very important for the leaders to take some quick actions, at least do a pilot, run a pilot, like experiment it yourself and get feedback from it rather than just waiting and taking no actions.
00:23:29
So that's why it is important that you should take fast actions, fast execution or quick actions. No, I mean, here I do agree, like the time between making a decision and taking the action should be super short. But what I do see, let's say, in different companies is that the time to get to a decision is still quite long. So the actual time to get to an action is still quite long. And part of it that I've seen so far is due to the leveraging the data, the data analytics, because, I mean, you can get either stuck in analysis paralysis or two different people are looking at the same data set, but with a different perspective and coming to different conclusions.
00:24:15
So how, what would be your advice or guidance in this case and to reduce the time to get to a decision? Yes, first of all, it's very important that you leverage the right people. OK, I mean, you should know, you should involve the right people into the decision making. And again, I would just like to give the answer from the context of Gen AI. So what happened was like last year after the law in the year 2022, November, when ChatGPT was launched, suddenly the hype of this Gen AI began. Right. And all the different businesses, the leaders, they began exploring. They became very curious how to exploit this technology and extract value for their businesses. So all these. Like most of the businesses, they began the discovery process of generative AI and they were very good at that.
00:25:21
Within six months, like everyone had a very good learning of the technology. They were able to figure out the high level technical know-how, how this technology works and all that. So the learning curve was very fast. But then after discovery, what happened was that we entered into the phase of piloting, where there were some pilots or some proof of concepts that were being developed. But then what happened is that not all the businesses quickly adopted this phase of piloting. Some of them had a wait and watch approach. They were actually waiting for this technology to mature. There was a study by Boston Consulting Group. They say that, so this study happened in 2024 and they released it in the month of February. And it gives you some amazing numbers.
00:26:23
So they say that only 10% of the companies have been able to scale generative AI. And the remaining 90% are still lagging in the scaled adoption of gen AI. And among the 90%, now this is very interesting, among the 90%, only 50% have begun piloting and 40% of the businesses have taken no action. They have adopted a wait and see approach. Let's wait what happens and we will see how this technology unfolds. And I would say that that is not a good way to go for it. Now answering a question, now how to bridge that gap? It is very important that these businesses, they start doing pilots because unless and until they will not experiment or not dare to do some pilots or develop proof of concepts, they will never be able to understand this technology like in practical terms and learn from their mistakes.
00:27:30
So it's very important that they have to take these actions. And how to take actions is that first they have to involve the right decision makers into the decision making process. Involving a cross-functional team is very important. You have to involve like sales, you have to involve your delivery, you have to involve your finance, like everyone should be involved when you drive the JNI pilots. It's super important. And that's also one of the mistakes that the businesses, the 50% of the business, a majority of them, when they have done pilots, they haven't really involved a cross-functional team. So these pilots have been selected and driven in silos and the selection of pilots has happened randomly. For example, someone from sales decides that let's do a pilot and the people from delivery have no idea what this pilot is all about.
00:28:30
And also there is no support from the leadership. So that should not happen. So everyone has to be involved and a quick decision has to be taken. They should start in at least doing a pilot and they should have a review, a governance and constantly evaluate the process. Yeah, that's the way to go about it. So this concept of like taking action fast and going from fast decision to fast action, it's also connected to what we discussed a bit earlier, right? About like failing fast is important because that's where you have the biggest learning zone, right? Absolutely, yeah, true. All right. That's curious. What I also wanted to touch upon is like the importance of empathy. Because here, I'll be very honest, I sometimes struggle with also my personal engineering background where like, look, I love to dig into data.
00:29:23
I love to be working with systems. I don't necessarily love to work with people, but that's why Maria and I are such a good synergy because she loves a bit more like to really connect with people. I'm a bit more on the side of that. But why is empathy then so important? And if you're not a people person, what can you do to be more empathetic? That's something that I've always been wondering. Yes, so this is how the empathy chain starts. So as a digital leader, as I've said before, you must empower, right? You must empower people to make decisions because as a digital leader, you are not expert at everything. So you have to really empower the experts. So to empower, what you need is trust.
00:30:13
You have to have trust with that person, correct? And to establish that trust, you have to know that person very well. You have to understand what that person thinks, how that person feels, and what that person desires, what he wants, what are his expectations. And unless and until you are not empathic, how can you understand that, right? That's where empathy really plays a very important role. So in my book, I have also given an empathy framework. So it is a framework that contains something known as think, feel and will analysis. So by doing this analysis, you actually can understand how the person or what the person is thinking, what the person feels and what the person wills or he desires. So if you do that analysis, you can understand it person much better.
00:31:09
And also, it's very important that you have to have a rapport with the person. You have to talk, have conversations, and active listening plays a very important role here. You have to really listen to the person, you know, and without empathy, that will, that's not possible. So active listening also is a very important skill with which, which actually can, with the help of which you can cultivate this empathy. So that's why empathy is important because empathy directly relates to empowerment, which is a very important trait in the digital era for a digital leader. I have a question regarding this digital era, because you said that it started in 2010. And before 2010, you spoke about it as the pre-digital era or? Yeah, we can call it the pre-digital era.
00:31:56
And so for the people who are not digitally on the same page, what do you, how do you actually define the digital era to start in 2010? Why it was not earlier when, for example, the internet started, but what actually happened in 2010 that we started with digital era? Yes, very good. Yeah, very important question. So the internet came into the scenario somewhere in the 90s. Can we say the first, the early decade of 1990, that's when the whole, the internet began, right? And the early 2000, we saw the dot-com bust, the dot-com, right? So many dot-com and so many internet companies came and all that. Yeah. So yes, so this digital era, you know, so, so this, so, so what happened in this digital era is that the digital transformation started.
00:32:53
And what is digital transformation? Let's try to, try to see the definition of it. So digital transformation is the new way of doing business with the help of latest emerging technologies. So this digital transformation has two components. One is business and second is technology. So if there is only business, but there is no technology or the latest technology involved, it's not digital transformation. And it's vice versa. You know, if there is only technology, but you are not actually doing a business transformation, then it is not like, it's not digital transformation. So during the time of internet, okay, when the internet actually, like took into, like became very popular. So what is this internet? You know, so it was actually setting the foundation for all these technologies, or it was setting the foundation for the new business.
00:33:50
So internet here plays a very important role of connectivity. You need a certain connectivity, right? Or a certain foundation on which you can build the businesses. So it was like, it was like setting up a certain, this foundation. And if you see the, so when the dotcom, during the dotcom era or the dotcom bubble, it was, I think the early 2000, right? So all the businesses which were traditional, they went online. So they had a web presence. So, and everyone had a website which was, which ended in dotcom. So that's why we call it a whole dot-com bubble. So what happened in that phase is that all the businesses that were traditional, they went online. But what is happening in the, so what is happening in the digital era is that all the businesses that already went online now are incorporating new technologies, like AI, like data, like cloud and all that.
00:34:52
So the transformation is happening even further, going to the next level. So you understand the thing. So earlier the businesses were completely traditional. Then this, with the help of internet, they had a web presence. And then now in the digital era, they became completely, like, like transformed. I can give a simple example to narrate this. Just take an example of a education institute, okay? That, say, imparts coaching to students. So in the, so how the traditional business model of these institute can be looked as a certain classroom where there is a student, I mean, where there are students and there is a teacher and the education is being impart. So then what happened when the internet came, the whole thing became online. So now this education institute had a website and students could enroll in the courses, right?
00:35:55
And they could, like, sign up through the online portal and all that, you know. So this institute had a certain web presence. But in the digital era, after 2010, the same institute or the same web portal, they started having, or they started incorporating different digital technologies. For example, they started incorporating AI or data analytics by which the online education could be, or could be imparted. And they started using these, all these digital technologies. So look at the transformation that is happening. It happened at the next level, right? So this is the digital transformation. So before that, it was an IT transformation, I would say. So the projects were the IT projects, but now these are the digital transformation projects which are more risky, more complex, and they are more uncertain.
00:36:52
So that is the, that is the difference here. Hope I'm clear, you know, in explaining this. Yes. So mainly the 2010, the digital era, you define it as the start of the digital transformation because the pre-digital era means that it was more, like, technical. We were speaking about IT, internet, etc. But there was not really incorporated business. And since 2010, we went more to digital transformation and we incorporated the business in the IT and more complex issues evolved. The digital technologies came into play, like AI, automation, and all that. So the transformation happened, went to another level completely. So, yeah. Now I'm curious as well, if you use like this triangle view, which I've seen also when discussing with other podcast guests in the past, where it's like, you have the people, the process, and then the technology.
00:37:52
And then like the technology is an enabler for the people and the process. If you touched upon that. Yeah, it is. Yeah. So it is even today also. So there is people, process, and technology. So all these things, they happen, they have to go together. Correct? So it's the people, yeah. So it's the people who drive, I mean, they create process, they create technologies. And in turn, just to complete the cycles, the technology also impacts the life of people again, you know, so like that. It's like a continuous give and take. It goes in like a vicious circle. So they all happen together and simultaneously. I have a last question from my side, and it's because you went through a really impressive journey. You did a lot of things.
00:38:41
You are a man of many titles. But when you look back, when you were starting, what would you advise yourself? What would you, what would you, when you are now like a wiser, etc. Like when you look back at your beginnings, what would you advise to yourself to do or not to do? Yeah, so I would say that discover yourself. Okay, it is very important. I mean, that is what I have learned. And if I have to give an advice to people, that would be the advice. Discover yourself, see where your passion is, and be patient because a discovery may not happen very fast. Honestly, you know, for me to discover what I am fully into or what I like took a very long time. It took me two decades to actually discover myself.
00:39:37
So yeah, so it may take a time, but then once you discover it, you just follow it very strongly because it sets clarity in you. It sets a vision in you. You know what you want to do, and you really become happy doing that. If you stop doing it, you will not be happy. You know, so that is a quick indication that you are on the right track. So you need to discover yourself, where your talents lie, what your passion is, and try to follow your path that way. So I like now I'm fully convinced that yes, this is what I want to do for the rest of my career. I really want to educate as much as possible, but to discover that I am a teacher took me a very long time.
00:40:23
Very long time. Yes, I knew somewhere, you know, it was, but it didn't become very strong. You know, I still, I mean, I didn't have that clarity, but the clarity came, you know, slowly, slowly. Yeah, over this, over this period of years. That's nice. And then like, because like right now you're finishing your second book. So after you finished your second book, what's then the next step for, amidst the teacher? Then I would like to do, give trainings, impart trainings to the, to as many people as possible. I would like to start with the corporates, because that's where my audience is. And whatever is there in the book, I would just like to bring it out to the people as much as possible, because the frameworks that I have mentioned in the book, they have to be applied right in your real jobs and at your workplace.
00:41:25
And that's how I can estimate or gauge the success of my book. The success of my book lies actually in how people apply the frameworks at their workplace or how do they bring it into their life. So that I would like to work on now. So after now, give them the frameworks. So I would like people to help them implement this in their lives and also at their workplace. So that will be my next step. Nice. So I think that we nicely wrapped up this podcast. All of these lessons learned and many really valuable inputs from your book, but also about you as a person. So thank you very much for agreeing to be on our Innovatology podcast. And we will then see with you very soon digitally or maybe in person in Sweden or in any other country. So thank you so much, Amit. Thank you.
