00:01:44
That's me. Nice. And what do you usually look for? Because you said that you are an investor, you do investments in a start-up environments. So Ben, you have this experience-what is the thing that you usually look when it comes to startups like the one thing that you really like to see in the startup when investing, yeah so it's it's always a bit of a combination I think for me, one of the most important things actually is the connection to the leadership team to the founder to the to the team who is actually doing that together, of course with the ID and the business impact that can actually have around that. I very often, most
00:02:25
of the time actually, fall into the space of of people technology because that's what I have been working in in the last a few years and of course I can add value not only on product but also of course on go-to-market and how to position it with enterprises and how you can grow and scale a company overall around that, but I think the most important thing for me is always the founder, the leadership team and The ideas and passion actually behind that-can you just explain what is people tech for people who might not know this, yeah? So it's I'm not sure if that is actually an official kind of term around that, but it's basically technology in the HR kind of area which helps with this new ways of working in the broadest kind of sense around that.
00:03:08
It's really helping not only HR teams, but actually people teams across the board and management with some of the areas around that, mm-hmm. And uh, what are some of the things that you're working on? That you're working on? What role people systems play in fostering leadership. development and aligning organizational culture with business goals for example so i think that this whole notion of people system is for me a very very important one because of course um anything what you do needs to be a surrounded system an ecosystem around that not just actually one thing off around that if i start off so coaching is one of the things of course which helps a lot
00:03:44
of leaders around that it helps them um creating self-awareness it helps them with self emotional intelligence which uh in in today's world the soft skills in the past actually are becoming the power skills um especially in the in the area Of HR that needs to happen, and of course all of these things are essential for collaboration in today's world. For me, servant leadership if you have heard that term, it's the new style of leadership because it's really about not this top-down kind of event, but actually helping us. In this area of agile and design thinking around that, and for me, people systems like feedback loops, like recognition, that you actually talk about-the things actually what you're expecting.
00:04:28
Leadership training and so they align behavior to company values, and the structured system ensure collaboration isn't just a buzzword but A sustained practice because it is incentivizing, of course. The right kind of behaviors often, when you look at some of the companies, they have their values on the wall, but they're not living it. But people systems can actually really bring that to life overall, that's uh really true. I uh collaborated in the past or i was part even of some companies that they had written their values on the wall, but then it was uh like when you were living inside that company for some time, you were like 'yeah, but uh' there is something
00:05:07
off because it doesn't align with my experience being for example, a freelancer for that company or like collaborating with them so it's really interesting how values works actually in reality uh and you mentioned a lot about collaboration and authentic collaboration so what is exactly authentic collaboration because lots of creators on platforms and in companies they call they call for collaboration with others but uh authentic collaboration what is it yeah so i think um maybe people have different kind of perceptions around it or definitions for me it's uh really the true collaboration is is building on on trust transparency and and shared purpose i think that for me is the the starting point around that it's It's not just working together, but it's actually co-creating solutions with mutual respect; um, that you really have that part and everybody is, it's equal around it.
00:06:06
And of course one of the things what is absolutely required there is psychological safety where people actually feel safe to share ideas, to challenge each other, to challenge the thinking not just top-down but actually, um, bottom-up; that's the part where you can really then collaborate and that fosters innovation, that fosters this growth mindset around that; for me, is actually the connection across that I really like; uh, that you what you said, that it's The environment where everybody feels safe to, for example, speak up their opinions to collaborate, to actually speak up their ideas. Uh, this is also going really nicely hand in hand with uh, the diversity that uh, actually like working in the diverse fields with diverse people. You need to have open communication; you need to be also up for example, having tough discussions.
00:07:02
Uh, one time I spoke with uh, with a girl who worked at Apple and when I asked her what were the experiences from Apple that she brought into her life and she said, yes this is also going really nicely hand in hand with the diversity, business; she told I tell you it was to have the tough discussion that, uh, the apple is actually innovative because, uh, nobody fears the tough discussion. But for example here in Europe we might see that we are avoiding it; we rather like go with the culture that, uh, it's, uh, set in the company, and nobody wants to take the responsibility. So, what would you advise to, for example, companies or to small medium businesses who want to start to have the tough discussions?
00:07:47
They want to enforce the trust transparency what you just mentioned about authentic collaboration. So, what would you advise them to start this so that we can move forward and not just uh comfortably around yes i think that there's no silver bullet i think i think it's not like the this one thing you do and there's something else because because apple as an example when you look at this steve jobs was uh famous for having this uh tryouts and this uh shouting kind of arguments about that not just actually shouting himself but also of course actually getting it and this is really an important one but i think it always starts of course actually with this psychological
00:08:26
safetiness because um if you if you want to create innovation you need to um you need to try things and when you try things and you try really Hard and you try different things, you fail, and failure, of course, is an important thing which you need to accept if you're not accepting failure, um, then people will not try the the best things what they can do; they will always play it safe, and playing safe actually won't get you actually to innovation. About that, so that kind of environment is really for me an important one, and I think what you also see is that collaboration is needed; it's not just working in silos but actually working across boundaries, working across functions that I think is where startups actually strive very often because they don't have very many.
00:09:11
big teams so they need to work actually across the board and therefore of course the outcomes actually very often are better but for me the other part is is really then to create this um this collaborative the flywheel when you have clear expectations around that when you provide feedback um to people actually what they're doing well what they're not doing well and they you allow them as well to do that when you recognize of course also what they are doing well and what they're not doing well not just again have it on the wall but actually really putting that into the systems compensating rewarding around that that all Actually, provide that environment around it and as you said, I mean it's all about different perspectives and it's not just about having a tick mark in one of these categories; what we're actually talking and I think we in the last years we were maybe not necessarily doing it very well when it comes to diversity.
00:10:00
It needs to be a natural kind of part; needs to be ingrained in everything, what we do, not an afterthought. If you do that from an overall perspective, you can get to that point; it comes back to different points of view and I have plenty examples because, of course, I was very often actually the only foreigner in the places. where I was living I remember China you have to get into this part and actually look at that so this is also a reminder for all of you who are currently watching and listening just fail fail as much as possible because this is a very you are actually enforcing the diversity and also authentic collaboration but then learn from it and then
00:10:43
from it this is also important to put it in the collaboration wheel that you put it back in the system and that you don't just close the door after you fail so I think that you said it perfectly and it's really important to then also enforce it in the system to learn from your experiences and Try it again, so like what did I fail and how can I do it different? And not just to get back to the normal and stop pushing because it's not how Steve Jobs did it for sure. No, he was very deliberate in many of the things around that, but of course it's also of course you have to be getting a thick skin for that because it's not nice to hear, of course, that actually you failed, that you actually messed up.
00:11:27
But if you have that in the right kind of mindset about gross, then I think you can actually learn from that. And this is this intention which is also so important. Um, there's many people actually writing books now about this intentionality. Around that, and I think if you're providing feedback, tough love as you call it with the right intention that actually helps the person, and it's exactly what you said: try to fail not try to fail, ideally not fail but actually when you fail try to learn. But actually give or take the risk because this is an important one. If you want to be innovative, this is a responsibility of our leader to actually enforce this culture inside the company, or because not everybody might have this emotional intelligence sometimes.
00:12:09
To for example recognize social I know that it's also a skill that you can learn, but uh, is there for example some position that you can hire into your organization into your company that will actually be uh there for you to enforce this change management or to be sure that all of the aspects are taken into consideration inside the system I I I think enforce is probably the wrong word I think enable is it's not working but I think if a leader creates that environment where this psychological safety is there where there's clear expectations where there's uh where he also he or she models this collaborative behavior as a leader where you foster open communication you encourage feedback not just top down but actually all the way Up and maybe having 360 and you as a leader, um, go out on a regular basis and actually say 'Hey, look I I'm trying to do this better.
00:13:11
How am I doing? Am I succeeding? Am I not? What can I do better? This is really really important around that. And I think the other thing is, um, leaders also need to force and this is where enforcement may come in for cross-functional projects because we all tend to work with the people actually we know and we like, but actually if you're in HR you don't like to work with Finance, but there is a lot of value actually when you work across some of the areas. Fostering this collaboration is cross-functional projects. To break down silos and this shared vision, I think is a really important one, and then it gets back to rewarding and recognizing and paying um for the efforts what you expect, because very often actually we do performance management and the the things what we actually paid and for or reward later on has nothing to do actually what we actually want in this kind of part.
00:14:03
So it's creating this environment um to to really do the things actually what you want them to do, and it's it's the leader has a big big role in uh to play in this one. And is there a way how can I prepare for this or like how can I upskill myself as a solopreneur because I mean not a lot of people are just Steve Jobs with the whole army of programmers behind and designers Etc and people usually start small but can I for example myself as a solopreneur prepare for for example delegation of the tasks and slowly but surely becoming becoming the leader what are the practices that I can start a small for example enforcing in our team and uh usually for example myself I'm outsourcing but I want to also enable this kind of culture of the change that we are really progressive that we want to innovate that the people can share who are working in for example my company that they can share
00:15:13
uh what they think that, uh, I am fine with this feedback that it's not only like, uh, that it's not only that I'm just giving the tasks and you should complete it, but how to actually foster this collaboration when it comes to outsourcing because we are also changing currently the way we are actually working-it's like a lot of corporations they are decreasing the number of employees and they are turning more into externals. So, like, how you can do this in these post-code times of work, I would say so that that that's a huge question, yes when you start, when you start off, of course, um, there's there's always good and bad things as well. Around that, because if you're a solopreneur, um, you have a lot, a lot of, um strengths otherwise you would not be in that position; you have a lot of grid, you work things, delegation is not necessarily one of them in the beginning.
00:16:08
So it's all about um growing as a person and growing as a leader into a position, and very often we have seen actually in the startup environment that some of the founders at one point are not able to scale to the next kind of level because uh, the company has outgrown them and they need more professional kind of manager around that. And I think for me what is important is actually that leaders, founders Anybody actually around that has self-awareness what they are good at, what they're not good at, what they can do, what I can what I can change. And I think it starts with you really being open to learn every day, not to to think that you know everything, that you're the best in the room, but actually to learn every single day from those conversations around that.
00:16:52
And when you have that open kind of mindset, a lot of the things actually fall into place because then you ask more questions than you actually say, then you make less decisions but you ask again and you work with the team in some of the areas around that, and as of. Course, the case, and I said processes in a in a delicate way because processes are not often in the starting environment, actually, very good. But I think you need to have an environment which is reinforcing what you're trying to do by creating that clarity by giving that feedback around that so by everybody talking around that by being that at that that environment where you have different perspectives actually at the table but then you also later on you're rewarding the things actually what is there, so all of these actually fit together
00:17:43
and but it starts for me actually always with this growth mindset because when you have that you're trying to learn every day and then you come to the table with this with this environment I really like what you said that sometimes the founders and the leaders that they are overgrown by the company and that you just need to be sober and humble about what you are exactly doing and what is actually good for your company that you just didn't we have an expression in check that you just should not like feel that you ate the whole world that uh there are people who are just like smarter in different aspects this is why you
00:18:23
are for example outsourcing this is why you have employees because you just cannot have All of the skills of the world, and you should be sober in these senses so I think this was a really good answer that you provided and I would just like to go back a bit to to you um because I am curious what inspired uh your belief that uh authentic collaboration is a key to unlocking an organization's uh full potential so where this all started when it comes to the authentic collaboration yeah I think um it's when I think when I think back um I've now worked 20 something years or so in big kind of companies around that
00:19:11
maybe in the last uh five or six years a lot more with the startup but my experience actually no matter if it is big big enterprises or if it was startups was always where that collaboration accelerates Innovation and ideally of course collaboration across diverse kind of teams around the different perspectives not just the man woman not just the different different races different kind of ways of thinking I think is is a really really important uh kind of kind of aspect around that and that I think it accelerates of course risk-taking what we talked about before and therefore of course then also Innovation and the other part for me is um I've always seen when people stayed in silos um and there's maybe misalignment that slows down growth and it slows down engagement because people are not going to be open enough they they feel like they're fighting against each other instead of actually collaborating actually across the board so I I realized that
00:20:12
the best performing teams what I've seen actually across the board was always whatever where it was not just communication but if they were connecting at a much deeper level I I don't like calling it family because I don't think that corporate is family because we don't fire people in the family but we we hold people accountable absolutely we do that in all of the areas and we create friendships And I think there's a lot of literature now which actually underlines that, actually when you have friendships in the office, um, that environment around that, you feel stronger, you feel more engaged, um, you, you feel like you work, um, longer kind of not hours but actually longer in that company around that, and that is all actually reinforcing itself.
00:20:55
And um, I think this this whole notion together when I look at all of that just says like it's such an important kind of topic around that, and without having that, you're not creating the innovation actually, what is needed. And I think the other thing is we talked a bit about um Having people who are cleverer than you, I think when you're in a room and you're the the most clever person, you have the wrong team because you should always be surrounding yourself actually with people who can challenge you, who are maybe better than you or have a better understanding or different perspective around that. And I remember very often actually when I was going to China the first time, we were coming up with different initiatives because we had to drive some of the some of the areas and I was always sitting back and actually saying like, 'Um, I think this but it's so much like, 'Oh my God...'
00:21:43
What you guys are telling me would never work in Germany, would never work in the US. But of course, I was at that time maybe willing enough to learn and actually be convinced. And actually when we did the initiatives exactly in the way that the team actually was describing, it was a huge success. And I was sitting back and saying, wow, I definitely have to learn a lot. And that's what I did over that period of time. Nice. In Asia, everything is upside down. When you arrive, you feel like you arrived sometimes in a different world, which is amazing for open-mindedness, for stretching the brain and the perspective and everything. So this is definitely a school of life. I think that you had just an experience in China.
00:22:29
And I really like what you said about that the opposite of collaboration is actually misalignment. That when you feel that you are misaligned, that your colleagues at work, that you might feel that the environment is not really open for your perspective, for your opinion. You might feel closed, not really speak up. What would you advise for people who might come across this kind of phenomenon that they really feel misaligned with their colleagues? Especially now when the hybrid working, virtual working is a lot of spread. So like lots of companies, they didn't. They didn't turn back to normal, which means to the office, but how do you really tackle the misalignment in the virtual or hybrid environment?
00:23:18
I think often we employees have a lot more influence actually than we think we have, because of course, I mean, it starts off with alignment across the team and anybody in teams today, when there's at least openness there, you can actually have a conversation and say, 'Hey, let's step back. Let's think about what is really important, what we are trying to achieve, because when the alignment is there, you can talk about why this is not working.' Because then you don't talk about people or you don't talk about you're not doing your job or not, I'm not doing your job, but you can talk about we're not going to achieve this because these things are not happening around it, which makes it, of course, a lot easier on that.
00:23:59
And then I think at the end of the day, there's always this kind of real, there's certain things you can influence, there's certain things you can't influence. If you try to influence things, but you can't influence because they are out of your norm, you will always feel unhappy and it's not going to help you. But if you try to influence. The things that you can influence, and then the other part when you can’t influence, you always have a choice to say, I like that, I can stand it or I cannot. And if you can’t, then you need to make a decision around that. But we are not. I think that the good thing is we always have a choice, and the choice maybe is not always the most attractive, but you have a choice, and it is much better to actually make a choice and not staying with that kind of environment where you don’t like.
00:24:44
Then actually being unhappy and getting into this. There's kind of negative modes around it, but I think it always starts off with actually, you have a lot more influence actually what you can do, bring the team together, talk about what is it, what you're trying to achieve in the topics, how you can get there. That is, that should always be the first starting point. It's of course complicated because you need to speak up and not everybody actually has that in their blood. But very often I found is that people are very happy and willing actually to do that because if you have that feeling, most likely somebody else in the team has exactly the same problem. And then of course you can solve that together.
00:25:19
I learned along my career that when usually I have some feeling that there is at least one person in my team who has a similar feeling. It's just that we don't feel to speak up because we are shy, because we think that the situation will turn against ourselves. So this is definitely something that helped me to speak up. So that it's not. It's just getting worse and worse when it comes to the misalignment; it's always better to just speak face-to-face about the current situation, really sober, and really tell what the situation from your perspective. It might be also cultural because if you're working in a multicultural environment, it just might be even the language that if you speak with native French and I am, for example, native Czech, it might just sound different.
00:26:16
But we are trying to convey as a message, so it's always better to speak face-to-face about the problem, not hide it or like put it under the carpet. And then, of course, your choice is also to quit. So. And I think it is it is important that we that we talk about that because it's not a forbidden topic today. There's lots of different choices and everybody has a choice. It's important, of course, that you can live with the choice. And actually, that you try to influence the things that you can influence. And that is certainly one thing where you can influence where you work. Yes, but a lot of people, for some reason, majority of the people, they feel like in golden cage sometimes that they are trapped, that they will not find the same standard, what they're used to in somewhere else.
00:27:05
So this might be also one of the struggles that a lot of people just say where they are to not take the risk. Also, then family happens and things like this. So it might be another influence in your choices. So you always have the choices. But what are the influences of your choices? That's the question. And it's very clear. I mean, I'm not naive. Some sometimes decisions are much more hard than than it is for some people, because, of course, everybody has a different life. But of course, there is still an option, of course, actually to make choices and actually make alignments around that. Can you maybe tell us some practical tips? I think there are some practical steps on how to start, for example, practical collaboration.
00:27:50
This that is actually useful for the startups. So like if I'm a startup, what are the certain steps that I should do to start the practical collaboration so that actually they are the healthy relationship sets from the beginning and everybody works efficiently? And that there is this like transparency around the management? Yeah. And that the people will not be scared to come to me with the problems or with the feelings. Yes, I think actually startups are much more it's much more natural anyway because of some of the things actually what we were talking about size and so forth. Because if you have a small cross-functional team, they normally solve kind of business business challenges around that. But if that is not not the case, building of course this this cycle.
00:28:44
But you have around that which is then talking about of course clarity that you have clarity from the very beginning. What do you want to achieve around that building processes in place, especially about team working, networking, collaboration around that, but then also again getting that feedback mechanism around that? So making sure that you ask the questions, what is working, what is not working? It's of course, it is needed that you create an environment where everybody feels safe. Yeah. Where they can actually get to the company, not just in a diverse environment that you show up as your full self, but that that it is encouraged that you take risk and that it is encouraged that actually you fail. Because, of course, if you don't fail, you're not actually creating that innovation around that.
00:29:35
So it needs to be there. And probably one of the things actually what I found very useful is actually celebrating failure. Because then you can really talk. Talk about that, and you can talk about the essence of what you were trying to do, the risk you're taking all of these things around that. And then, of course, having that last part, of course, with rewarding the efforts and the things around it. But being being, for example, intentional about inclusion is also an important one, because if you're not intentional, nothing is ever going to change around that. But when you're intentional, when it is part of your network, not an afterthought, but intentional about hiring, thinking about what are the different things actually you want to bring to the table, not just gender, not you name it, but really thinking about it from different kinds of perspectives on what you're trying to achieve helps.
00:30:26
And then the other thing for me is always as well. This is not static. It has to change. It has to iterate. You have to refine that on a constant basis. Collaboration involves as the business grows or it shifts. There's so much change happening in today's world. And if you're not actually updating and changing some of the behaviors, that's the same with this culture over and around that, then, of course, you're staying static. And at one point it is not relevant anymore for today. That, I think, is especially for a startup environment. Many startups think too late about the culture of what they are trying to create. It's easy when you have one person, when you create, when you hire the second, the third, the fourth, maybe the 10th or the 20th person, you have been the one actually hiring them, knowing exactly what they're doing.
00:31:13
But at one point, that's not the case anymore because you can't scale a company like that. And then, of course, it is important that you're creating rules which are fulfilling for itself in order to drive that that all kind of kind of works together. Nice. I was just when you said that you should celebrate the failure, I was just thinking about what was my last failure that I should celebrate that I forgot to celebrate it. And I think it was that I invested in a software. Yeah. where I wanted to steamline the processes. And I did a mistake that, because if you are starting nowadays with a company, with your startup, if you're a solopreneur, even like if you are a normal individual, there is a lot of software that you need on daily basis, be it CGPT, Riverside, you name it, Microsoft 365.
00:32:07
The bills are just getting a dub how we are using currently the softwares. And I was amazed by one software, which was like scheduler on social media. And I had this kind of really vision how our team will no longer need to, for example, show up every day on social media to actually post something. And we'll just be scheduling everything in one day during the week and it will be much more efficient. And I prepared it for the whole year, even without like trying it fully for, for example, like seven days. And it was really like more than 600 euros per year. And I think at the end, we just used it like for one week, two weeks.
00:32:52
And we just realized that it's totally useless, that most of our other software like CRM is also having this function of scheduling posts and that actually scheduling of the posts on social media is decreasing your engagement. So it was one of the failures that I had to recenter. And I was like, well, since then I actually learned that I will rather pay three times for one month, which is sometimes like bigger price. So instead of, for example, €7 for one month, you pay like €10. But we just tried for three months paying this bigger price. But after three months, you decide if you want to proceed with this software or not. And I no longer go like a really straight ahead with buying software for one year.
00:33:44
So I should actually celebrate the failure, even though I have maybe a bit of trauma of spending more than 600 euros on something that I didn't use. But at the end, I should celebrate that it didn't happen to me more often. Well, I think the celebration actually is that you have a realization that instead of thinking, and this is, I think, one of the things many of us actually have, is like we always try to actually do something and then we have it perfect, something big, and it's a big push. But that's not adequate anymore. That's the same when you're actually building a product. You don't want to wait and actually have the perfect product around it. You actually want to go in there.
00:34:22
You try something like you, you try it actually for one or two months or so. You pay maybe higher. And then you iterate around that. And then you see, is it worth it? Is it not? And if it's not worth it, then scrap it. Start with the next one around that. I think it's a very, very good learning around that. And we can use that the same learning for many things actually in our lives. Because coming from HR, we have in the past always had huge projects. We would sit in a dark office. We would lock ourselves away. And then actually, we are trying to work for weeks and then we are ready. And then we roll it out to everybody and nobody likes it.
00:34:56
But it's much better to do something small and actually work with the people actually doing that. They like it. We can improve it. We can do something else. And then over time, you roll it out and actually everybody likes it. Much better outcome. Yes. Exactly. And here we are talking also about innovation. That you are always like upgrading your processes and everything. But what advice would you give to a business leader who wants to create a culture that balances innovation, collaboration and inclusivity? Because it might be really difficult sometimes like taking into consideration that like the startups or the founders usually are in the local region. So for example, in Belgium, in Czech Republic, in America. And usually you start with a bunch of friends that you know someone and you usually just outsource or you employ your neighbors.
00:35:49
And it might be really difficult to be inclusive from day number one, like to have diversity of the team and also be innovative and at the same time collaborate with other creators, with other startups, etc. Especially if there is language barrier. I found, for example, like if you are not the English, Spanish or French native speaker, you have a really big disadvantage to some extent when it comes to the collaboration because you might have brilliant idea, but you bring it on the local market and you don't know how to scale it up abroad. And you might have a really innovative idea. You might collaborate well in your local country, but then there is also missing the inclusivity, there is missing the expansion over the border.
00:36:45
So what would I advise to the business leader who might be struggling with this? Yes, I think you're absolutely right. I think you can't have everything in the beginning because you just can't. You need to make the right kind of choices in some of the areas. I think look at collaboration or even diversity or inclusion in this kind of part. Yes, you can have it with hiring or with your team, but if you don't have that in the beginning, because actually you self-fund, you do all of these things around it, you still have the product. And the product actually needs to be when you have a product. Most of the time you have the product, either it's a software or if it is a service or something, the product needs to be, of course, fitting to a diverse kind of environment around that.
00:37:32
And that, of course, actually means you have to be open. Again, you have to have a growth mindset. You have to be open to feedback. You have to be open to talking to different kinds of people around it. This is where your language comes in. Yes, different kinds of people, different kinds of backgrounds, people giving the feedback actually around that. Because when you do that, the innovation actually comes automatically because you're not thinking about somebody. There was this great example, and I'm not sure if I can talk about it exactly, but they were having makeup or so. And of course, they were only thinking about testing it on people actually in the environment around that. Then there were people actually coming who had darker skin, and they were providing a lot of very interesting feedback around that.
00:38:18
And when they were actually being more inclusive automatically, they were able actually to scale this to a very different way because you can use that not only for your target audience, but actually for the way you actually account that. So I think that the starting point is always you need to find a way how you create collaboration, this inclusivity around that, and it doesn't have to start always with the team, but it has to start off with mindset. It has to start off how can your product, your service, what you're creating, be as open as possible for that kind of area where it actually helps. And then of course, as you're growing, as you make decisions, the fourth, fifth hire, bring somebody in with a different kind of background around that.
00:39:05
When you look at this, this is for me, the important kind of aspect to do that. Yeah, this is, I really like this because I had a talk with one guy who is a founder of infrared therapy and his co-founder is a man. He's also a man and they are co-founders and they made infrared therapy and they mainly did it for the sport purposes that actually you put it on the joints and like it is like penetrating really like a deep into the skin. It's the best on the market. And it was like great device. But then, because of the feedback and because of the inclusivity of the company to expand over the borders, they actually got a feedback from women, which they didn't know that it's like helping, for example, with the period pain and with also like different symptoms that women can have, which the guys who are actually founders didn't know and they even didn't think about like testing it in this direction.
00:40:04
Of course. And then they received this feedback from their customers and they started to invest then into inclusivity into the studies, how the infrared therapy can help women with different symptoms, etc. And I found it really interesting point that when you are then scaling and you have more resources, you have also more testimonials, more people are using your product, either it can be physical or it also digital service because I also had it. For example, with my services where I provided it to the couple, they came to me that they need branding help, some advices that they actually launched company in USA and that they want to create the branding for their new company. They were working in a real estate, and we were working on their branding.
00:41:00
It actually ended up during our third session that they didn't really need the branding as such, but they needed a coaching how couples can actually do business together because they struggled with, for example, time management. They were living together, they were working together, they were really like partners in crime and everything, but they didn't know how to do business together, how to set apart personal and professional life, how to, for example, track the time and how to divide the tasks among each other because she was, for example, responsible for social media and he did all of the manual work. So every time in the real estate, when they bought a house, he did everything like physically in the house and he came home totally tired and she was like five hours doing social media and she wasn't tired physically, she was tired mentally, but they started to argue like who is more tired and like how he's doing all of the job and she's just on the phone all the time and stuff like this.
00:42:04
So then it ended up and also evolved an idea that I can do like a business course for, for example, couples. So like how to divide the tasks among each other, how to actually collaborate together and how to do this because of the experience. Also, I see it with my parents, they are all their life, they are living together and working together. So I know these tips and tricks on how to survive, but it's again, the evolution, the feedback, the more you speak with people, the more you are open to have these conversations and then apply it in your reality that you learn the most from this authentic self. It's interesting that you're going from branding into couples therapy. I'm not getting really in-depth about couples therapy as such, but let's say that this is where I leave the table.
00:43:02
Afterwards, they can deal with it together. I'm always saying, 'I'm giving the people navigation, the structure and stuff, but the actual implementation, it's up to them.' So if there would be some kind of tough situation, I would just pay the bill and I would leave slowly but surely. A typical consultant. But as you have like the physical services, then you also have digital services and you need to cope with new situations and new situations, for example, testimonials that the people are interested in, the different services. So it's always evolving also with you. And this is what I like about branding that you are actually the brand and the brand is evolving with you based on the stages of your life where you currently are.
00:43:56
I want to also use the opportunity as you are the investor because I'm really curious about three mistakes, what the startups are usually doing when they are pitching to you or when you are actually like scanning the different startups. What are the three common mistakes that startups are doing that you are always like, no, this is not. Yeah, I think that there's not such a thing as like it's always the same, but clearly when I get a pitch deck who doesn't make sense, who doesn't, where I don't understand that at all, where I have to ask a hundred questions, normally that's a sign that they're not ready to actually pitch that to broader kind of people, but also have clarity for themselves actually why they're doing it, what they're trying to do.
00:44:49
The other thing is when the experience of people don't fit with what they're trying to do. It makes me always very worried because if somebody who has only sole choice they're now trying to actually create a software company, I feel always a bit reluctant because they don't have the experiences actually around that. And then maybe the third thing, and that actually happens very, very often, I have to say, is that they're completely overestimating the market and the market impact that they could have as their company. That they are thinking like, oh wow, in one year or so, you're growing already 5,000%, and this is what's going to happen. Very often that actually means that the business acumen of people is not necessarily there on that.
00:45:44
I think you have to have that balance. You have to have the right kind of passion. Absolutely, for that, you need to bring that up, but you need to have that sense of reality as well, because otherwise this will not work. Yeah, I totally agree with this answer. Also, like when we spoke a lot about the leadership and how to be the leader, business leader with authentic collaboration. I have a question because I have myself like the idols or the leaders that I am looking up to. Do you also have some leader or leaders that you really are like, yes, these are the true leaders like who I am really admiring or like you take them as your icon or idol or something like this? Yes.
00:46:35
Yeah, I certainly do, but they're not necessarily the people like the very big known kind of people. I have experienced people who are really good leaders. I was very lucky. And very often actually it's the same kind of thing. It's people who are very supportive, who give you chances to drive things, who put you into situations where you feel yourself you're not ready, that you're not going to be successful, but they are supporting you to actually make you successful. Because by doing this and putting you into situations like that and making sure that you're not failing, but actually having the support around that, you're growing exponentially. And this, I could like tell you, like two or three people in my life who have done that and I am eternally grateful for them.
00:47:27
And I try to do something similar because if you have somebody as a cheerleader who puts you into a situation, who helps you, who pushes you uphill and actually is waiting to support you, nothing better than that. Where this leader can be found because I was not this lucky. I was lucky. There's some people in IBM who were really, really, really good about that. Unfortunately, some people actually passed away in the meantime. But these are people actually I fondly remember. And I can always talk about that. Nice. Yes. I was definitely not as lucky as you when it comes to leaders. I was like even like at some point really like I had a critical, maybe I would say like unlucky lucky because on the other hand, like I also like started to have the critical thinking about how it would be if I would have the cheerleader next to me because I would maybe need to not then found my own company.
00:48:34
I would maybe stay in the employment. I would be really happy and I would feel supported. But because I didn't have this feeling, this was why I was like migrating and like I was always really closing myself into my own world after the work. And I was looking for like really to get my passions out there to show my passions on the social media, etc. And this is how my brand started. So it's I would say both being lucky and unlucky because like if you have this idol of a great leader that you really experienced it, you then really know how to lead as a leader because you actually were in close contact with that person.
00:49:22
But also if I was not, then yeah, my leader might be, for example, Elon Musk or Leila Ramosi or these kind of folks who are like super popular, but I never spoke with them. I don't actually know how they are as leaders because I was not part of their leadership. I just see what the news is selling me and giving me. So it might be also a bit, I would say even like a misunderstanding who their exactly is. So like you, because I could just see who leader is from the textbook, from the news, from the cartoons and these kind of things, which is really sad at the end. But I do think there's, you learn from good and from bad experiences. Sometimes you learn from bad experiences is even more.
00:50:19
And I think looking at that and it's saying, I want to be like that or I don't want to be like that has a lot of implications actually on you. And both can be great experiences. And actually, I would argue that if you were to have a great leader, maybe they would have pushed you to go into being self-employed, creating your own company because that's what they're seeing in you. I think good leaders are not necessarily that they're actually pushing you in their direction, but they are open and they're trying to support you, what you can do around that. And I do think good and bad experiences actually can help overall around that. The good one is of course a lot easier and a lot nicer, but both can definitely.
00:51:01
But what would you maybe advise to people who came across negative experience of a negative leader? Because then, if they are in a situation like being really currently like around a leader who is like suppressing them and be rather a boss than a leader, what would you advise them? I mean, we spoke about the choices that always have, for example, quit from that environment. Yes. But is there also some other, for example, mindset tweaks that people can use because if people are in that situation for some reason, like I need experience, I just cannot find a job, I'm too young. There isn't just a queue for me like of 30 other employers. So, like, is there some protection that the people can use to not get influenced?
00:51:56
For example, we can speak about depression and these kinds of things. Yes. I think it gets back to choices. Absolutely. But I think it's a bit broader than that, right? Because you always have the choice to, ideally you like what you do, you like the environment. Sometimes you need to, or you don't like. So that's the two very extreme kinds of ones. But there's something in between. Because of course, there is your environment and you need to decide for yourself, can you stand it? Can you stand it because of this? Can you stand it for some time? Can you do something in the meantime? I think there are lots of these kinds of things in between liking and not liking. And of course, there's also something where you can try to do about that.
00:52:37
Because I've experienced in my life also leaders who were terrible and they didn't know. And actually, when you go and actually have a conversation and just tell them and say, 'Hey, look, this is how you make people feel. This is the situation what it is.' This is a very tough conversation because you don't know if you're going to go out and if you don't have a job anymore. But you need to see if you can have that risk or so. But my experience, not only once, but actually more than once, was actually that when you speak up and actually you provide that feedback, the person is not maybe thankful, but they actually, but they are surprised. I had this one situation where this was really a very, very bad person who was very toxic.
00:53:26
But in the end, they didn't know. He was trying to drive; he was trying to do things. And when he got that feedback, he actually got a coach and over time actually tried to improve around that. It's not always the case; sometimes you just get on somebody and who is toxic, and they will actually be not there. So you need to make your choice actually if you want to have that conversation or not. But often speaking things up helps you because even if it is a bully who is maybe not in the right one, when you speak up and when you talk against them, they have more respect for you than actually before that if you don't do anything around that. So it's really, there's so many different variations around that.
00:54:03
But it's about you being conscious of what you're trying to do, thinking through the options what you have and then actually picking the right thing that actually fits for you because everybody is different. Every leader is different. The situation is different. Everybody has to try to understand that. And of course, when you have conversations with people who can help you, advise and coach you in this kind of thing, that will make a better kind of caller. Yeah, I really like this. And I would just add to this that it's not about what you say at the end. It's about how you say it. You can just tell them that they are, for example, not good in something that they probably are suppressing you. But don't tell it literally like this.
00:54:44
Just think about it for a few days. Maybe use your GPT in some more professional ways how you can convey the message without offending them, for example. So this might be also that it's not about what you say literally, but how you say it. Always you can say it more professionally. You don't need to scream at each other when you will go to the person's office. That's exactly right. All right, Horst. Do you have something that you would like to say at the end of this episode? Something that we didn't mention that you would like to highlight more? That we didn't, for example, have time to touch upon this topic or something like this? Well, there's so many different things. But I think, especially today, in today's world, change is the only constant.
00:55:39
So, of course, actually having that right kind of mindset, what we were talking about, questioning about the things what you can influence, what you can't, but actually providing that common kind of part is for me one of the most important things. And of course, it always starts with gross mindset. If you think that there's something that you can't influence, it makes it very complicated. But if you actually think that you have an influence on many of the things around that and you can do proactively take some of the steps around that, it makes it so much easier for yourself because you're not bound by something, what is happening to you, but you can actually make it yourself. I think that's for me one of the most important things. Yes, that's an amazing closure. So that brings us to the end of this episode of Your Brand, Your Business. Thank you again, Horace, for sharing your insight with us and also to you, to our listeners. Thank you for tuning in. And if you enjoyed today's episode, be sure to subscribe and leave a review. I'm Marie, and I will catch you next time. Bye. Bye-bye, everyone.
